New Brass

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

Seems to me after reading their material, with brass the annealing process is done only by the heat. The cooling process is only that, you can do it either way, by air or by using water, so it has no affect on the annealing process. If it is steel, you must let it air cool slowly for the annealing to take place.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
Michael Johnson

Re: New Brass

Post by Michael Johnson »

Sorry Kenny, my info is from Ken Light who sold me my annealer. He recommended the same tempilaq that Coltsmoke talked about. The brass barely glows at all in a dark room. I would agree with trimming a case that will not chamber, but only those cases. 99% of my untrimmed cases chamber just fine, 100% of my Starline virgin cases will. Most are too damn short. They will all shorten after firing.Also, dumping them in water just makes a mess. But, I have only 25 years experience with this.I am willing to listen to others viewpoints. I have never had a case separation. I also believe that Dan Theodore knew way more about this than most of us combined.
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

Interesting discussion guys. I'm sure there are a number of 'right' ways to do this...
Wish we could all get together over a couple of beers and have fun with it...
I'm still going the 'wet' way, just because........

I guess we have to keep in mind that the original owners of our antiques did all this over a campfire.....
and still hit the big shaggies at 900 yards....

AND WHEN I THOUGH I WAS DONE..THEY PULLLED ME BACK IN! (sorry Supranos)

So, how often should we anneal the shells?????

HA. and off we go again...Ken
ChrisF
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Re: New Brass

Post by ChrisF »

Before I load or shoot any new brass I prep it. Peeping is I full length size uniform all primer pockets de butt flash holes chamfer the case mouth inside and out then I Anneal then flair the mouth
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

Yup Chris....me too
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: New Brass

Post by Lumpy Grits »

To add-I do full length size after each firing.
I size my .45-70 brass in a F/L .45-90 die. :wink:
When seating the bullet-I run the ram 1/2 way and then lower the ram. Turn the case 180* and then go the full ram stroke.

G.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
ian45662
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Re: New Brass

Post by ian45662 »

Air cool or water Quench it does not matter. Once the brass hits 750 it’s annealed. Like coltsmoke I have done a fair amount of testing when it comes to annealing. My paper patch loads require that I anneal after each firing. It actually pretty amazing to my how similar our cadence is. I found that counting to thousand 1 thousand 2 thousand 3 thousand 4 thousand 5 would get my brass at the correct temp. If I count the way he describes with the extra number in there I bet our count comes out really really close. Like him my brass doesn’t glow at all but I know the time it takes to get to the magic number because of that templac stuff
Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I need to add this about Theodore's way, you only need about a 3/4" flame on the torch which brings the case to temp. at a little slower rate. If you bring the temp. up fast with a longer flame you will blow right by the maroon color without even seeing it at the case mouth, it will be orange and hitting red very fast.
Like Ian I anneal before I load every time, that was also Dan's recommendation, I ask him why do that if you are just doing a slip fit load and not sizing the brass. He said to make sure the brass is consistently sealing to the chamber wall. Dan's way is easy to do and that was what I did before I got my machine. If you have brass that is in need of annealing you will see all the black blow by around the case mouth and coming down the side of the case.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

I've never heard of annealing after each firing .....seems like a lot of work, but if it works ,,,then it works...

I've found that once every four or five firings seems to be enough... split cases are not a problem...at least so far, and my brass is now on it's
50 or more firings.... 40 70 SS using JBA, and 30 40 Craig shells...so far so good.

question...when you anneal so much, do you find any case stretching?

good discussion....Ken
ian45662
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Re: New Brass

Post by ian45662 »

I only do it that often with my paper patch loads. My greasers seem to do just fine annealing every so often but I don’t really shoot those anymore. If I don’t anneal after each firing with my PP loads then the groups start to open. Yes I do get some stretching but nothing crazy. I stretch my brass initially to Be just about .005 short of the chamber. Before loading I also check the lengths of each case to be sure it’s not to long which if it is I trim it. I have some brass that has been shot 15 times now and seems to be doing just fine but I’m sure I won’t get the life expectancy of others. Im ok with that though.
Woody
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Re: New Brass

Post by Woody »

In all the years I've been shooting these rifles, I've used two brands of brass, Winchester and Starline.

I use Winchester 45-70 in my 40-65's and of course 45-70's. As long as I compress the powder at least .050 or so, and have just a little neck tension, the brass does not require annealing ever, and does not stretch at all. When new, I just load it and shoot it. Then I check length. I have lost track how many times these cases have been fired. Some are over 20 years in the reloading/shooting cycles. Lately, a few are starting to crack longitudinally, not because of stretching, but just too many firing cycles.

I use Starline brass in my 45-90's. I've found that if don't anneal it and don't have some powder compression, these cases will stretch. Sometimes up to .030 inch at time. At that rate, they will fail in just a few shootings. I don't know if it's the extra .300 inch in length or just the brass composition. They will start stretching a few thousands each firing unless I anneal each time. So now that I've got two 45-90's to play with, I've started annealing these cases more often.

I use a propane torch, electric drill for a spinner, sit in a darkened room, and air cool. I haven't count'ed time in the flame, but maybe I should.

Woody
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

Ian, I'm wondering if you anneal the PP shells because you've had some paper rings show up after firing? I've had this happen once in a while and blamed the slight factory crimp, or the cases which I also trim to a couple thousands less than the chamber.
in my 40 70 SS 2.500 case, I trim to 2.495 or so. I do't want to have a case enter the bore.
I've had 1 1/2 inch 100 yard groups doing this, (as long as my 73 yr. old eyes let me) with both PP and greaser 400 grain bullets.
Ken
Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I keep my brass from .005 to .010 over length, no problems shooting PP or GG bullets. I have shot it as long as .015 over length in 3 different rifles. I like to keep it at .005 over. It will let you know when it is too long, you can easily see it on the case mouth. Wow! We've had a lot of discussion without having a piss fight. :shock: :lol: :lol:
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
ian45662
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Re: New Brass

Post by ian45662 »

Kenny S I have never had a paper ring on my highwall. I went out one time with 3 different brasses. One group was just annealed. Another group was 1 fired then loaded without annealing and the final group was fired 2 and loaded without annealing. The first group was fine. The second group opened up some and the final group was all over the place. I can’t remember what the group sizes were exactly but it was enough to make me want to anneal after each firing and trust me I was looking for a way to get out of doing it because honestly it gets a little old but oh well. Such is life.
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arnie
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Re: New Brass

Post by arnie »

Kenny ,paper rings as well as lead rings in the chamber are caused by too short cases . I have never seen in modern times a 45/70 case made to a full 2.1 length and I guarantee unless you have a custom made barrel and chamber ,its more than 2.1 long .Blame the lawyers for this .
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