New Brass

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Castaway
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New Brass

Post by Castaway »

Just ordered 100 pieces of Starline brass in 45-70. Annealing is easy and cheap but I don’t want to unnecessarily use powder or lead in fire forming. One option I’m leaning towards is a 2.5 cc Lee dipper full of powder, topped with cornmeal. The question is, can I stuff toilet paper on top of the meal or do I need to top the meal with a bullet?
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: New Brass

Post by Lumpy Grits »

I would not ever use a filler-very good way to 'ring' the chamber.
The fire form is the best way, and lets you get your sight settings as well as your mechanical 'O'.
Anneal, load and shoot..
Gary
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
George Babits
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Re: New Brass

Post by George Babits »

Are you shooting it in a 45-70? Then why do you even have to fire form it? Just load it up and shoot it.

George
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powderburnt
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Re: New Brass

Post by powderburnt »

I have good accuracy from new brass. Like George said, load it up and shoot it. It will surprise you.

HG
MSalyards
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Re: New Brass

Post by MSalyards »

Anneal first.
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

anneal it, trim it, and fire away. then check the length again after firing.

One of the guys taught me a great way to anneal.
go to hardware store with a case, find a long socket to just fit the shell base loosely
buy a nut and bolt to fit inside and get two washers to fit.

bolt it together, pout it in your drill , light the torch, put a bucket of cold water under it, turn and heat to red then dunk.
repeat. EZ and dirt cheap.
just one of the ideas I've received from this forum.

Ken
Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I'm sorry Kenny but you are way off. Don't trim your brass until you shoot it first. Don't anneal your brass until it turns red, don't dunk your brass in water, it doesn't do anything but give you a bunch of wet brass. I have had some great loads with new brass, but after you shoot it one time the brass will change because it is now blown out to fit your chamber, the powder column will now be lower in the brass and the compression on the powder will now be less and the load will change. If you had 300 pcs. of brass it would probably pay you to get a load for the new brass and use it until you had shot all of it for the first time. Only having 100 pcs. just load it and shoot it and be done, then you can start down the path to working up a load. Don't try to shortcut it, just pay the price and be done. I just shot about 150 pcs. with 60gr. of powder with a patch compressed on top of the powder and thought it done the job, nope, it did not. After firing it again with a bullet it then was blown out to fit the chamber. The brass was now shorter and the load changed.

As far as annealing, it only takes 3 sec. in the flame to do the job. You can buy a bottle of 750F Tempilaq and follow the instructions and see exactly what it takes if you like. The socket Kenny speaks of will work, Meacham makes a socket type cup to use in a drill if you want to just purchase one ready to go. Set the flame on your torch to be around 1" to 1 1/4" long, put the tip of the flame about 1/2" below the case mouth and spin the case with your drill. Count, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, that's it, no more. This is not just my opinion, I've purchased the liquid Tempilaq and I've done the test to see exactly what it takes to reach the right temp. to anneal a piece of brass without overdoing it. Now that your brass is correctly annealed, shoot it with a bullet, clean it, trim it to the correct length if it needs it, it will probably already be too short. Now you can start down the path to working up a load.
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Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I'm sorry Kenny but you are way off. Don't trim your brass until you shoot it first. Don't anneal your brass until it turns red, don't dunk your brass in water, it doesn't do anything but give you a bunch of wet brass. I have had some great loads with new brass, but after you shoot it one time the brass will change because it is now blown out to fit your chamber, the powder column will now be lower in the brass and the compression on the powder will now be less and the load will change. If you had 300 pcs. of brass it would probably pay you to get a load for the new brass and use it until you had shot all of it for the first time. Only having 100 pcs. just load it and shoot it and be done, then you can start down the path to working up a load. Don't try to shortcut it, just pay the price and be done. I just shot about 150 pcs. with 60gr. of powder with a patch compressed on top of the powder and thought it done the job, nope, it did not. After firing it again with a bullet it then was blown out to fit the chamber. The brass was now shorter and the load changed.

As far as annealing, it only takes 3 sec. in the flame to do the job. You can buy a bottle of 750F Tempilaq and follow the instructions and see exactly what it takes if you like. The socket Kenny speaks of will work, Meacham makes a socket type cup to use in a drill if you want to just purchase one ready to go. Set the flame on your torch to be around 1" to 1 1/4" long, put the tip of the flame about 1/2" below the case mouth and spin the case with your drill. Count, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, that's it, no more. This is not just my opinion, I've purchased the liquid Tempilaq and I've done the test to see exactly what it takes to reach the right temp. to anneal a piece of brass without overdoing it. Now that your brass is correctly annealed, shoot it with a bullet, clean it, trim it to the correct length if it needs it, it will probably already be too short. Now you can start down the path to working up a load.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

hey Coltsmoke, good opinion, however....
I've bought new brass and found that a few were over the length. that would allow it to flow into the rifling. checking just prevents that.
final trimming.... yes , after firing.

brass.....when I say red, I mean just past the blue and not red or yellow.

tempering in water?.
well...steel hardens when quenched in water. brass softens when quenched in water. fact of life...
If you just let it sit,,,it gets harder......

so, I quench....been doing it for years and no problems yet.

just two ways of doing it....Ken
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: New Brass

Post by Lumpy Grits »

If you run the brass to red-You've ruined it :!:
Only heat till you see a start of color change.
Dunking non-ferrous metals like brass cases, does nut'n to the hardness. :wink:
The only way to make brass harder-Is to 'work' it.
Gary
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Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I agree with you Lumpy, but I think that might depend on how you load. If you just do slip fit loads without any sizing of the brass at all, you will probably be O.K. I'm guessing about that, I don't know for sure. If you are doing neck tension loads, now I'm not talking about a slip fit load and then you taper crimp the neck of the brass down to the bullet. I'm talking about a true neck tension load where you size the brass neck down .002 or .003 less than the dia. of the bullet. I usually do .004 smaller, that is run the brass into a neck sizing die, then just barely flare the case mouth so the bullet will start in the mouth of the case. Now use a seater die and force the bullet in the brass case. If you have over annealed your brass you will have very little resistance when seating the bullet, the brass will expand very easily because of it being so soft from over annealing. If over annealed, the brass can collapse when trying to seat the bullet and I have had it happen when I first started this game and didn't even know, what I didn't know. There is a lot, I still don't know. :lol: From the research I've done the annealing process takes place at 750*. I've done the test several times to see exactly what it takes to get a brass case to that temp. That is what I described in the post above this one, that part is a fact. If my research is correct, I don't think it would matter how you let the brass cool, that part, is just my opinion. Using my machine set for the 3 second time the brass does not turn red, the brass neck has a slightly gold appearance. Now that is brass that has been annealed before and shot before. A new piece of brass that has never been shot before turns to a blueish sliver color a 1/2" down the case to where the flame is applied to the case. I've lost one piece of brass due to separation in 9 years and that was caused by a wet chamber. I've never had a case split at the mouth using neck tension loads, slip fit, or paper patch.
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Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

I did a 3 sec. test with my machine with the lights out, just light coming in the door from the next room only. The brass did not turn red. Theodore's suggestion was to have the light off in the room and leave the door open to receive some light from the next room or hallway. So the room is nearly dark. Spin the brass in the flame until you see the first hint of the case mouth starting to turn a dark maroon color, again, stop at the first hint of the marron color at the case mouth. That was Dan's suggestion and he probably knew more about it than I do. I'm just trying to help the new shooters not trying to start an argument at all. Let's get out there and make some SMOKE!
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: New Brass

Post by Lumpy Grits »

I only shoot GG with about .0015 neck tension. If you use the appropriate expander-You will have very little resistance in seating.
With the soft bullets we use, I use 30/1 alloy-Anything more in tension will swage down the bullet dia.
No tapper crimp-ever. No reason to.
Just bump the case into a size dia to take the case mouth flare out.
Annealing really evens out the NT and bullet pull.
That in turn helps to reduce ES in your load's velocity.
Like I said-I only heat the case till I see the color change in the brass. That's usually a 5 count with my setup, with the lights off.
Then it goes onto a air cooling rack with a fan going.
I also check bullet run-out, and try to keep it under .003 TIR.

Gary
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Coltsmoke
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Re: New Brass

Post by Coltsmoke »

Lumpy I'm shooting 16-1, I tried .001 neck tension, .002, .003 and finally settled on just neck sizing the case down and seating the bullet. The more tension I added, the better it shot. I got tired of checking runout and taking the time to correct it in each round of ammo. Changed over to paper patching and all of that went away. Oh no, now we are hi-jacking the thread. :lol: :lol:
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kenny s
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Re: New Brass

Post by kenny s »

This is from Wikipedia, it is the answer I asked about annealing brass , temp, quenching etc. This is a cut and paste...the 'until glowing' comment is theirs.
who knows....I'm sure there are a lot of 'right' ways that will work...Ken

In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and then slowly letting it cool to room temperature in still air. Copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water, unlike ferrous metals, such as steel, which must be cooled slowly to anneal. In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work—such as shaping, stamping, or forming.
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