Weighed versus measured

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desert deuce
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by desert deuce »

You know Bruce, Sir Winston Churchill faced similar problems. Unfortunately that insidious Lord Chamberlain gene escaped the British Isles and has afflicted most of Christendom. Certainly if someone of Chamberlain's ilk had admired Sir Winston publicly he would have been offended. What was it Sir Winston said about it was good to have enemies as it meant you at one time stood for something. England called upon Sir Winston when she desperately needed results not affirmation. And let us not forget what the high and mighty in crowd of scribes and Pharisees did to the only perfect man that has ever walked the earth.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Coltsmoke
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Coltsmoke »

Wow, hard to compare, Stevie Wonder could follow that example double dee. Oh, you know what powder it was, that doesn't matter anyway, half a grain is half a grain. :P
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
mike herth
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by mike herth »

Thanks Coltsmoke, very interesting. Was that middle group repeatable, and at what range do you test loads? I’m limited to 100 or 200 yards and usually choose the latter. I shoot a 45-70 and 45-110, both PP with OE Fg or 1.5Fg. Using the latter in the 45-70 with 1.5 I can’t see a difference between weighed of measured. I was hoping to find some well-researched empirical data, perhaps from the army in the late 1800’s when they were developing target loads for the trapdoor. Maybe it is stored in that same warehouse that holds the arc of the covenant. I use the MVA powder measure. I have also wondered about the relationship between increased powder charge and compression effects.

Beltfed, I’ve about given up on digital scales, I’ve had two different brands and both had consistency issues. So I guess it’s back to the tried and true balance.
Mike
gunlaker
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by gunlaker »

Mike, I've tested a number of times on paper at 300 yards to see how much difference there was between measured vs weighed charges. In my .45-2.4 I cannot tell the difference. Both shoot extremely well. I've also done some shooting with my . 45-2-7/8 at 800m gongs and the measured charges seemed to out-shoot the weighed ones by a bit. However there is a lot going on that that distance, wind-wise.

In Perry's book from the 1800's on target rifle shooting, he states that a grain of powder is worth a point ( assuming he means one minute of angle ) in elevation at 800-900-1000 yards.

Chris.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Lumpy Grits »

Coltsmoke wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:09 pm Back to the original question, what amount of variability in a powder charge can make a difference? You said you had as much as 0.6 grs. variation with your scale. Is that enough to make a difference? The answer is yes and no, depending on your load and caliber. I have had loads in a Shiloh 45-70 that shot great with 3 powder charges, 67, 68, and 69 grs. So I just loaded in the middle at 68grs. So a half grain difference in either direction did not make a difference. But if you went under 67 or over 69grs. with a half grain, yes it would make a difference. When I get down to fine tuning a load I will load half grain loads in both directions to dial it in. Testing loads with half grain differences comes more into play with calibers smaller than the .45's. A grain of powder in a .45 adds .020 in the powder column height which adds .020 more compression to the load, half grain only is a .010 add to the compression. I test loads in the .45 at one grain increments and cover the whole range of possible loads. In my .40 I test loads at half grain increments to cover the whole range of possible loads, if you only test at 1 or 2 grain increments in the .40 you can totally miss a good load and not even know it was there. In the .40 caliber 1 gr. of powder will add .035 in the powder column height and to the compression, you can miss a load that will shoot with a .020 addition to the compression and never know it was there with a 1 gr. add. My PP load in the .40 will shoot at 72 and 73grs. of powder, if you go to 73.5gr. accuracy goes away, if you go to 71.5gr. of powder accuracy goes away. I think it has more to do with the change of the compression on the powder, than the half grain more or less of powder which would change the velocity very little. The picture below is a .040 test, look at the 66.5 gr. load in the middle, then look at the loads on each side of it which is only a half grain of powder difference. So the answer to your question is yes it can make a difference on the target.DSC01985.JPG
That center group has the 'yellow paper' the other groups did not.
What paper is this :?:
What about trying the 3 loads again, with this yellow paper you speak of?
Gary
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bruce m
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by bruce m »

what chris said.
bruce.
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mike herth
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by mike herth »

Now that’s encouraging Gunlaker! Thanks.
Kurt
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Kurt »

When I shoot bowling pins or swingers here at 200 I will just drop the powder from my Lyman 55 in about 50 cases and shoot. I really can't say that the accuracy is wore=se or better than weighing the charges. I even took dropped 100 rounds and shot them at the Q and hit just as many as the weight loads.
But when it comes down to match time I use the weight loads.

I guess it one of these things :)
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Coltsmoke
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Coltsmoke »

Lumpy that was paper that I use under my pistol primers it is .007 thick. I used it on top of the poly wad to increase the compression on that half grain load to get it where I wanted it to be. All that paper done was add some compression on that one load. I have shot that load several more times and it does repeat. That was the first test with a new GG bullet mold that I got. There was 8 different powder charges tested on that first test and that one was the clear winner, it will be the load for that new bullet, if I shot it, I seem to be hooked on this PP train. I just wanted to be able to shot either GG or PP for that rifle. That was a 200 yd. test.
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martinibelgian
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by martinibelgian »

Yes, but it is YELLOW paper! Now would the results be different with green? It's another variable, to be investigated... :shock:
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desert deuce
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by desert deuce »

Actually, 8 thousandths Rasberry works OK. :D

Good question, the repeatability is the really important issue.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Lumpy Grits »

Coltsmoke wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:30 pm Lumpy that was paper that I use under my pistol primers it is .007 thick. I used it on top of the poly wad to increase the compression on that half grain load to get it where I wanted it to be. All that paper done was add some compression on that one load. I have shot that load several more times and it does repeat. That was the first test with a new GG bullet mold that I got. There was 8 different powder charges tested on that first test and that one was the clear winner, it will be the load for that new bullet, if I shot it, I seem to be hooked on this PP train. I just wanted to be able to shot either GG or PP for that rifle. That was a 200 yd. test.
[/quot
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I think that paper did more than just up the compression a minor smidgen. :wink:
Like keep'n the bigger wad from stick'n to the bullets base or some such.
Gary
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"
VBull
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by VBull »

Mike,
At one time I was living in the southwest and was shooting year round and matches nearly every week. I started out weighing and measuring everything but soon found I was spending so much time at the reloading bench that I could not get anything else done. So I started streamlining my process. I only weigh powder to set up the powder measure. I use either a Lyman 55, a Belding + Mull or an OLD Hollywood. It all depends on what caliber and what the last use was for. I will drop 20 pieces or so and might weigh one, often I don't until done with a batch of 50 pieces. Experience has shown me my powder weight variance is about +/- .3 grain. so a total spread of ~.5-.6 grain. My bullets weigh +/- .5 grain so a 1.0 grain variance. These numbers are a bit loose compared to what others have posted and/or posted but they are not sloppy. The amount of time spent at the bench has gone way down and time at the range went way up which is where you will make the greatest gains in shooting these rifles. This is not benchrest!

When we were shooting a few years ago, my wife and I set lots of NRA records and won lots of matches with the simple loading techniques. Most of the best shooters don't agonize over loading they get range time. Good luck with your shooting. FM
mike herth
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by mike herth »

VBull, Thanks, this is the type of feedback I was looking for as I couldn’t discern any improvement on my targets despite weighing each load. I’m laid up with back issues at the moment but intend to keep testing a couple of promising loads soon to see if I can replicate success. That’s my goal in seeking simplifying my reloading process.
Mike
Kurt
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Re: Weighed versus measured

Post by Kurt »

What I found a couple tenths grains of powder or bullet weight does not increase the vertical enough to throw you off target. What I found that does the most vertical is bullet release from the case.
A case to long or too short I see the vertical increase. In the rifles that have a 45 degree chamber end transition into the throat where the case is cut too close to that transition gets pulled past that 45 and tightens up the release and intern increases the pressure building up behind the bullet.
The same goes with a case too short where the bullet obturate in the space in front of the case mouth and the 45 bump and that extra lead gets ironed back down entering the throat.
I spent a lot of range time looking for a way to reduce the vertical that kills a good final outcome and most of my rifles have a 4 and 5 degree transition into a 1.5 degree throat and the vertical is at a minimum in those rifles.
A mix match of alloy cast in the same mould also will do some dirty work.
I might be wrong about this but it has cut my vertical way down prepping my cases properly.........Kurt
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