22 BPCR targets

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powderburnt
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Location: Central Arkansas

Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by powderburnt » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:14 pm

Same rule applies to big bore. Off the rail is the key wording, unless artificially supported, like rail supports. Spun chickens, pigs, turkekys and rams (never saw a spun ram) count zero. Really upsetting to make a chicken fall forward and balce the rail on it's beak or spin one the opposite direction but..... gotta draw the line some where. not to mention animals out of order. Hate it when I do that. Like dust off of clay birds, it's a miss. Be a better shot, keep my heasd out of my ass. I guess I get excited.Anyone ever crank the Knobs the wrong way?

HG

Glen Ring
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Glen Ring » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:00 pm

Cody
Shooting the deflector plate , hitting it inches below the target some times makes the chicken resets fall...not like a rail hit. We never count those on our scorecard but I think some folks may. Free standing chickens leave no doubt...it's an x or an o.

We will see this weekend how everything goes with the monthly match. Dan has been working hard on the targets to make them reliable so we can have the rules in place before the regional match.

I LOVE free standing targets so we don't waste the target setters time counting hits...That, to me, might as well be a match on swingers.

We may have a mix of free standing chickens and the rest pull resetables. This weekend will tell.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.

Woody
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Woody » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:40 pm

Two things.

1. A "pecking" chicken does count, while a turned one, does not. The difference is, the chicken is supposed to be on a stand. If hit enough to put it on it's beak, it would have fallen if properly set.

2. Has anyone tried a strip of foam tape on the shield between the chicken. I'm thinking it may absorb the pulse of the bullet strike enough to not knock the chicken over. Could be a cheap fix.

Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.

40-65rl
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by 40-65rl » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:14 pm

Glen the problem is rams and chickens at Nationals. I have never heard of anyone ringing a pig or turkey. The way the rams are mounted is what, I believe, the problem. Free standing rams only. We paid good money for target setters and then went to mechanical animals with half the setters. Huh! I have only ever rang four animals in 22 bpcr, that's over 20 years of shooting it. Three rams at the "new and improved" rams at Nationals to which the board of directors feel that taking a solid hit away from a shooter and giving a rail chicken is fair, but then what I know about how they decide how and who gets the animal count. I never heard a word about this rail chicken rule while I was at Nationals. So, if you ring an animal and the other guy hits three "rail chickens" and wins an award that is a fair competition? So who was lucky enough to be told about the rail chickens? The only other animal I rang was a ram at Kevin Griggs, rain match last year. A ram got a bunch of mud on it's feet and was basically stuck to the rail. Two of us rang it then Kevin fixed it. It did not count, of course, free standing targets. Fair is fair in that case.

It took the .22 BPCRA board four years to finally get the grand master class after being asked to consider it by three of the bigger match directors and multiple shooters. Three years to get the stool rule for our less able shooters to be able to compete and only one year to get the bench sticks approved. Think it is time for them to get their heads out of the sand and listen to the shooters. Appreciate what the "old timers" of the sport have done to get this sport going but come on folks get with it and make the tough decisions. Think the board cannot figure out how to resolve the problem so they just ignore it and hope no one will complain because it is the nationals. Take a note from BPCR and Target guys. Also I would really like to see a spread sheet of the financial status of this organization. Don't post it, mail it to each member once a year. Lots of money going in and with fewer setters, most awards being donated and the increase cost of membership, what is this $1 handling fee when I buy my book from a match director, no mailing cost??

Glen, I need to know if you are using those mechanical monsters or free standing before I head down for your match. Thanks

Dick
In order for me to be insulted; I must first value your opinion.

Gamerancher
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Gamerancher » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:37 pm

I have personally seen, through the spotting scope, hits on the chicken "rail" at the .22 Nats that were at least 5 inches from the intended target knock down that target and sometimes more than one target. Are we saying that that constitutes a hit? You've gotta be kidding. The other one that I heard was folks claiming that targets were "bouncing" back up and being counted, never saw that one on any of our groups' banks despite some very hard hit chickens.
The only time I have seen "full" hits not take down the re-settable rams is when the bar was still up behind them or the ammo being used was a lower velocity target ammo that had run out of legs.
Dan
Out in western NSW where it don't rain much.
Australia

BFD
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by BFD » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:44 pm

FWIW, I shot a chicken that bounced back up and then back down, if I recall correctly.

I also shot either a ram or a pig that went down but took another with it. That happened on that specific bank (1) three out of four relays that I watched it.

Personally, I don't consider these major issues.

BPTR is a MAJOR issue.

jackrabbit
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by jackrabbit » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:39 pm

For the record, as a board member of the 22 BPCRA, yes we know there is a problem on the chickens. Dan Zimmerman graciously volunteered to re-work them and they will be much improved for next year. As far as I know, there were no ringing problems with the turkeys or pigs, although at least one bank had a problem that #3 would go down along with #2 when it was shot. It didn't seem to do it on the Friday practice day when we tried them all out, but it did it on Saturday. We adjusted it and it was better on Sunday. There also appears to be a problem on the rams. Center rump hits will occasionally ring them on a some of the animals. We are still working on what to do about that. I know I witnessed it happening at least three times. They were full bullet strikes that should have put them over. The three rung animals that I saw did not result in the shooter not placing therefore after discussing it with the shooter, that shooter and I decided not to make a big deal of it. The fact is, we cannot run 160 shooters through the match with free standing targets and 60 shot matches. Going back to free standing would mean decreasing the numbers of entries or going back to 40 shot matches. Also, there are other positives to the resettables, including the animals are always facing the right way, they are always correctly spaced and they are never muddy, among other things. Although there are more than a few that dislike the resettables, I have to admit that there are more that do like them. We have received a lot of positive feedback about them and they are generally liked. The dislikers just seem to be more vocal.

Although I often don't personally agree with some of the board's decisions, I feel I must support it as a member of the board. I want to also remind everyone that this is a shooter ran organization with ZERO paid personnel. Everything that gets done is done by volunteers and our board members are elected. If you have questions or don't like what is going on, call or email the board members and visit with them. If you don't like one of the member's stances, vote them out and consider running yourself. We need new faces, ideas, and energy! Please do!

To answer Glen's original question, as a shooter I prefer the free standing targets. As a match director, I prefer the resettables. The targets are not going to keep me away from any match, however. If it is a well run, fun match, it will be so regardless of what target style is used.
Take care, Cody

VectorMan
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by VectorMan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:32 am

Glen Ring wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:06 pm
What do most of you prefer to shoot ...free standing or Pull reset 22 BPCR targets?
I like the free standing as a shooter. I understand the reasoning behind the auto resets.

If you beat me by 1 chicken that you hit the rail on and he fail, good for you. You won’t hear me complaining. Or I rung a ram and it didn’t fall, nope no complaints here. If I get beat, I get beat. I’m sure in my course of fire there’s a mistake I’ve made somewhere that I could and should have not missed and animal, so I get beat. I love this sport. Like BFD said, there’s bigger issues to discuss. When I get so disgusted with the results of someone’s score that is better than mine because of the rules in place, and petty enough to talk about it, please direct me to the nearest range exit, it’s time for me to find another sport.
I shoot to beat myself first and foremost, and if I shoot my best and that puts me in the winners circle, so be it. If it don’t, it’s still better than working in the office and I’m still on the right side of the grass. I enjoy shooting.
I say this with all do respect to the fine shooters out there.
"keep adding powder til it bloodies your nose and blacks your eyes, then back it off bout 5 grains."

Glen Ring
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Glen Ring » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:46 am

..and there you have it. Just a poll to see what most like for our upcoming regional next month. It's a lot of work, but I think we'll try to go with the free standing targets. I'm with Kenny..I giggle each time I send a little chicken flying. The resets are GREAT for the bigger matches and Dan has done a fantastic job making them.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.

40-65rl
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Location: cheyenne, wy

Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by 40-65rl » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:11 pm

I am going add just one more comment about the use of free standing or resettable targets then I will go away from this string.
I am told that the one point lost to a rung target does not make any difference in a shooters standings. I beg to different with this and here is why:
First, the lay down targets, the ones we are ringing, all of these targets have a 100% probability of being hit by a master shooter since they have been in the past. In fact, all shooters are very much better at the lay down animals than chickens and have the probably of shooting all the lay downs. On the other hand the chickens offer the probability of less than all 15. In fact the probability is ZERO since it has never been done. So with that said there is no way after a lay down target is taken away from a shooter he can never win the match over a shooter even if he shoots a perfect, not probable, chicken score. In fact the probability of the lay down shooter who lost a rung target gaining ground on the other chickens shooters is reduced by three animals for every rung animal. Why do you say, it's only one target. Here is why, first the lay down rung target shooter must get the chickens he would normal get, then get one more to make up for the target taken away and then, because the probability of any chicken shooter getting more than ten chickens is also zero, because it was not done at nationals, the rung shooter has only a probably of 10, not fifteen animals. The average number of chickens shot at nationals in 2019 by master class shooters was 4.68 or rounded up to five. So based on probability the rung shooter must shoot three chickens and then shoot four more to just get even with the average master chicken shooter. He rung shooter has been penalized the probability of shooting two animals needed and the level playing field has now tipped to the side of the all the other chickens shooters who did not ring an animal. Simply said, the level paying field is being tipped to the chickens shooters and the better the chicken shooter is the bigger the advantage is being given. It's just not fair and to keep everyone in the competition on a fair and just manner there needs to be a reasonable way to decide the hit or miss of the a target that, under, normal, free standing conditions would have had the probably of being knocked off it stand. The only way a proficient lay down shooter can compete with even the average chicken shooter is to be given the hits that would result, with a high degree of probability of going down.
In order for me to be insulted; I must first value your opinion.

BFD
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by BFD » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:15 pm

Dick,
I appreciate what you are trying to say, but your application of probabilities is a bit confusing and not quite accurate. A rung animal is just one target and that is all the ground that is lost. And, of course, the odds of winning the match do favor the best chicken shooters, as has (and always will be) the case. One might do a correlation to determine if good chicken shooters tend to be good lay down shooters. I will save that for another day, but I imagine they are.

Just for fun, I thought it would be interesting to see what the odds for success were for each animal with each shot.

Using just the iron sight Masters' results from 2019, the probabilities are quite different. For instance, only one person shot all the lay downs on just one day (Nice job Joe Scott!). No one did it across two days.

Only 4 of 16 shooters shot all of their pigs over two days. I was surprised at that, but the average was only 28.07 pigs or 93.56%

NO Master Class Shooter got all the Turkeys OR all the Rams. Averages were 24.20 and 24.13, respectively, or 80.67% and 80.44%

On Chickens, the probability of hitting a chicken was 0.30 or 30% The average number shot being 9.

As for making up for a rung ram or any other animal - you really can't do it regardless of the probabilities unless you are willing to claim that you hit a target that you would have missed, had some other target not been rung earlier. However, for the most part, these are independent events.

Anyhow, your post made me curious about the expectations for each animal for master class shooters as a whole, and now I know and so does everyone else. Of course, each of us has a our own personal averages and expectations, not just our class expectations, but this is one way we can see how we stack up (I was beat the average master shooter - that was interesting, to me at least)

40-65rl
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by 40-65rl » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:32 pm

Brent, I did ramble in my post and I appreciate you can see some logic in my effort to look at probabilities.
First I consider myself a pretty darn good lay down shooter. I have a dozen perfect scores in lay over the last four years at ranges in New Mexico, Kansas, Wyoming. In 2018 I ran 87 straight lay down animals, more than any other shooter other than Brian Chilson. He, however did miss two lay down animals and gave away some opportunity for that good lay down shooter to sneak up on him, until he shot chickens that is. I can stay with Cody Smith at our local matches because it is expected I will shoot a 29 or 30 every time I shoot. Cody on the other hand has shot only two perfect lay down scores ever. He kills everyone with chickens because he is damn good at it. I stay with him because of my lay down animals. If I miss one of the them I may as well pack my bags and head home because I am a terrible chicken shooter and I cannot make it up. If I loose a rang target, again, I may as well go home because my strong suit has been taken away and I am left with having to excel at chickens. Looking at the lay down scores for the top 6 master scope shooters in 2019 none shot a perfect lay drown score. In fact, the HOA lost two animals, two animals a good lay down shooter use to help catch the good chicken shooter but only if no animals are rung. If a rung animal or more than one is taken away the edge goes back to chicken shooter. It's not just one point because the difficulty in any one hitting chickens his large over the lay downs. Of the 2nd HOA through 4th in master scope scored a total of 30 lay animals missed with one missing 9!!!! That's plenty of opportunity for a good lay down shooter to gain ground, if his hits count, if not, again, the edge goes back to the good chicken shooter. The lay down shooter must do his part to gain ground, but given that probability of shooting a high number chickens is considerably less than the lay downs and it a very steep hill to climb, however, shooting a better than your usual miserable chicken score would go a long way towards that, but some of us shake so badly chickens are just not going to happen for the most part, but.......put us on those steady sticks and lets have a run at it!!! In the long run a good lay down shooter can stay with and be as competitive with the good chickens shooters if give a fair chance. Most matches are two days long and it is pretty easy for a good lay down shooter to sneak up on the rest of the master shooters and win the HOA without winning a single day match. I did it in 2019 in irons A class. Didn't win either daily match but won the Iron A National championship by sneaking up on the competitors with my lay down scores. My chickens scores still sucked.
In order for me to be insulted; I must first value your opinion.

Glen Ring
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Glen Ring » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:09 pm

We shot 22 BPCR at Oklahoma City today and had a couple of problems with targets going down. Deflector plate hits took down chickens and solid hits on rams left a few standing.
We have decided to use free standing targets at our regional next month.
The 22 BPCR match on Friday will be a 40 shot match on free standing targets and in the afternoon we can have a side match on 10th scale pigs at 200 meters ( yes..200 meters. air rifle pigs ) or everyone can practice for Saturday's match .
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.

Glen Ring
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Glen Ring » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:37 pm

We shot a 60 round BPCR 22 match today at Oklahoma city using free standing targets. They are well maintained targets on good rails.
There were several rams rung, and a few pigs with marginal and good solid hits.
We set up the reset chicken targets that were revamped by Dan Zimmerman and everyone had a wack at them....NO problems.

If the guys are available to help we'll have reset targets as I can see no difference in reliability when hit.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: 22 BPCR targets

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:33 pm

Solid choice, based on actual results.



Way to go, the range is on my bucket list, got grandkids there to visit.

The Lunger KW.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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