Mid Range BPTR National Championship

[Glen Ring]

IF and that's a big word...IF a mid range BPTR NRA national championship were to immediately follow the BPCR NRA Silhouette National Championships at Raton New Mexico next year.. I wonder how many crossover ( for lack of a better descriptor) shooters would attend ?

[BFD]

IF and that's a big word...IF a mid range BPTR NRA national championship were to immediately follow the BPCR NRA Silhouette National Championships at Raton New Mexico next year.. I wonder how many crossover ( for lack of a better descriptor) shooters would attend ?

I think more would cross over for long range than mid range. Historically, that has been the arrangement.

[40-65rl]

Think if the silhouette shooter understood that the distances for mid range are almost identical to silhouette they may be inclined to shoot the mid range target. Most folks, like me, didn't know anything about mid range until the mid range shooters in the area explained it to me. Now I not only shoot it I run matches. Looks like a pretty good turn out for this Saturday and Sunday's matches. Better than I expected. Educating shooters is the way to get them to try something new. We got the .22 BPCR folks to shoot the reduced size targets at the Smithmoor .22 BPCR matches and they seemed to like it. Many of them also shoot the big bore silhouettes. Having the .22 match on this Saturday will get the folks a chance to try the mid range targets at even longer distances and that game may "hook" shooters to try the big bore mid range. Shooting 600 yards is only 50 yards farther than the rams silhouette shooter shoot. The 200, 300, 500 and 600 yard targets can be shot with BPCR silhouette loads, Creedmoor, on the other hand, is a whole different game. Different skill set. Think the clang and bang guys would be inclined to shoot the Creedmoor, 800, 900 and 1,000 yard matches more so than the silhouette. Sorry Brent, just my thoughts.

[Woody]

I've always enjoyed Mid-Range over Long Range. Just my preference. I might be interested. Would the match displace or be run at the same time as some other silhouette match?

Woody

[Woody]

I've always enjoyed Mid-Range over Long Range. Just my preference. I might be interested. Would the match displace or be run at the same time as some other silhouette match?

Woody

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Historically, we have more Creedmoor shooters yes.
However we only had 15 paid entries for a Creedmoor this year, crossover from Silhouette didn’t happen this year, that’s history now. Creedmoor is as Dick pointed out, a totally different game and mindset.

Historically our crossover happened in the Days of the AB format, we got a few silhouette shooters to shoot Midrange with us on their off Day. Very few Silhouette shooters shot Creedmoor after or before silhouette with us, Woody and a few were the exception. The Creedmoor match historically always has more numbers than the midrange matches, yes but the shooters historically are not Silhouette shooters.

Too many days in a row, will make it an endurance game, not a rifle match, which is why we voted for a separate set of days from Silhouette, the heat alone on the firing lines will be a killer. Back when we did split and Jonathan ran the matches we got the numbers back up to 60, due to a fine run match and one well worth attending. The next few years of Barry run matches, then Steve Rhoades and Jim Kidwell trying to save it all, Barry for what ever reason didn’t get awards or do anything for the Target rifle matches. And numbers after crashed, in 2017 a NRA board member HG Walt Walters came out to see what could be done, his own words were, “BPTR had suffered from benign neglect”. That year shooters ran the match, built the targets, such as refaceing from the position match to the prone. That’s a lot of work, 4 shooters 3 from Wyoming and 1 from Colorado helped with that chore alone. Plus 1 from Wyoming and 1 from Colorado ran the match, with Greg helping with the line, 1 Wyoming shooter helped in the pits to get them running smoothly with Greg’s crew, he didn’t even shoot.

I have shoot midrange and Creedmoor since 1996 at Raton, back then 6-8 Months before Raton adds with dates and the format were advertised in the Single shot exchange and the BPCR news. Joe Cashwell was the match Director.

KW

[Glen Ring]

Dick
That's why I was thinking there might be some folks finishing BPCR Silhouette that would try BPTR.If the distances are close...why the heck not try it.

Kenny..a very valid point on physical demands of shooting both. You know the shooters far better than I do. If they are not physically capable of shooting that many days the point is moot on trying to get enough momentum going to justify a BPTR National championship following the BPCR Silhouette championships.
I always approach things from my point of view and not consider those who are older and less fit. Maybe having both at Raton and close together, is not such a good idea.

[Jeanne Ring]

IF and that's a big word...IF a mid range BPTR NRA national championship were to immediately follow the BPCR NRA Silhouette National Championships at Raton New Mexico next year.. I wonder how many crossover ( for lack of a better descriptor) shooters would attend ?

I think more would cross over for long range than mid range. Historically, that has been the arrangement.

Tried that this year and it didn't work. It makes more sense to me to offer Mid range, which was my preference this year also, but I wasn't consulted. Those who are "in the know" made the decision to offer long range. It was not auccessful, as we all know.

Time will tell. I don't know if they will offer it for 2020, but I am certainly going to lobby for it.

[40-65rl]

Jeannie,
Kenny makes a very valid point about the heat and shooting one right after another. Even two days of practice and then shooting the iron, scope BPCR, day off shoot two days of 22 and then four days of lever gun or mid range and then Creedmoor would be a killer for most of us.
As Kenny suggest, put Creedmoor and mid range together and at a time when the heat may not be as bad. You may have noticed I did not finish the third day of BPCR because of heat exhaustion. Got well and shot the next day but it took sometime to get back. I know what two days of shooting the 22 and BPTR at Cheyenne in 80+ degree heat is like. Kenny knows his stuff, follow his lead and hopefully the NRA will also.
Dick

[Don McDowell]

If the target rifle midrange were to be 2 days of position followed by the 2 days of the 3,5,6 format for prone, I would be pretty interested, providing the 22 match immediately preceded target rifle so I wouldn't have to sit around 5-6 days between the two.
However if target rifle were to be the full blown Nationals, with both stages of midrange and the Creedmoor I would definetly attend. I'm pretty sure a handful of other folks that don't care much about silhouette would be there for a full blown BPTR nationals.
Assuming of course the match fell into August or Sept.

[Jeanne Ring]

Seems like the crowd, or at least the ones I have talked to and have seen offer an opinion on various social media, is split. Some would attend BPTR if it's close to silhouette, some want it months apart, some want summer, some want fall. Some want mid range, some want long range, some would only attend if it's the traditional seven-day Creedmoor format.

Can't make everyone happy, and some you can't make happy at all.

As I said, I intend to lobby for BPTR for 2020. I may not carry a big enough stick to get it done, but am going to try.

[Don McDowell]

Well do the best you can Jeanne, the format will either suit the shooters or it won't.

[jackrabbit]

Just wanted to throw my vote in the basket. It is for a separate, fall BPTR match. I cannot take enough time off at a time to try and shoot silhouette, 22's, levergun, and BPTR off in one shot, and I do not find it fun trying to shoot that much in a row anyway. If I only want to shoot two of the events, I can't just hang out for several days waiting on it, and I cannot go home and come back in two or three days, so I end up picking which one I want to go to the most. Also, it is just too damn hot in the middle of the summer to shoot BPTR. I do not find it all that fun then, but it is sure a hoot when it is cooler or you are shooting underneath a cover.

Without intending to irritate anyone or stir up a pissing match, I would say the core group of BPTR shooters would much prefer a separate, fall match. In the past, we've had quite a few voices that shouted for a summer match connected to the silhouette matches. Strangely, they were not present at the matches they lobbied for. I think preparing for and shooting BPTR is a large enough commitment that people are not just going to casually shoot it like they might levergun or other competitions where you can just buy a rifle and some ammo and show up. Trying to set it up that way in hopes we will get some "crossover" is a mistake. We need to cater to the committed BPTR shooters by running a good match (as you always do, Jeanne), hold some regular fall dates, and give the match a couple of years to build. If it is well run and fun, it will indeed build. One thing I have learned from putting on matches and being involved with planning them is that rarely do you get a great turnout with the first match. If you keep holding it, doing a good job, and promoting it, it will build over time. Nothing happens fast, unfortunately.

I think Steve Garbe's recent editorial had some excellent points in that all competitive shooting events have ebbs and flows. In the good times, there are lots of shooters and support. In the lean times, it is the committed, dedicated folks that hold it together until it flows again. These are the folks that need supported. Unfortunately, these folks feel rather crapped on by the NRA and until it proves otherwise, their support is going to be hard to get. Relying on getting enough "crossovers" to support the match is doubtful it will work either. Thank you, Jeanne, for all your hard work and for advocating for us. I hope the schedule works out I can attend.
take care, Cody

[Glen Ring]

And there it is I guess. I will direct my energy and resources to other areas other than BPTR. I was trying..I will stop .

[BFD]

Cody,
I was really going to stay out of this again, but you roped me back into it.

I am a bit amazed at the rather disingenuous complaining about it being too hot to shoot BPTR in at Raton in the summer. I hear that over and over and yet, when we shot silhouette in June this year, the hottest month of the year, it barely crawled out of the 80s. I have shot long and midrange at Raton and a number of other places. Raton is generally the most pleasant of all of them. I'll shoot next weekend long range next week, and it will probably be hot, humid, and full of mosquitoes, but so what?

This summer, while shot lever gun and BPCR the 2-mile guys had not problem being out on the range for several days in the full sun. In other years, the F-Class and Palma boys are blasting away without complaint. But BPTR shooters? I guess they just can't take it. We have a reputation as being a bunch of crybabies. Maybe we deserve it.

Meanwhile, on the Byers range they just held a mid range match last weekend. What do we know about Byers? two things. They have a great pit, and it is always blazing hot. Here is a quote from Robert's excellent match report of their "Championship"

"We had our shooters meeting under the cover and proceeded out to the 200-yd line which was already blazing hot, as forecasted. ...Barrels were too hot to touch and patches were coming out steaming!

So if it's too hot in Raton, certainly it is too hot in Byers, no? Apparently not.

Target Rifle created an "Ironman" award for noting how tough you have to be to shoot it. Maybe it should be called the "Marshmallowman Championship", and only awarded on if the weather does not exceed 72 degrees the wind stays below 5 knots and the sunshines all the time.

Yup, sometimes it get pretty warm out there. But Raton is hardly the hottest place to shoot long range. The Midwest matches are often far hotter, and we have humidity here. Something the mountain time zone has never experienced. But for cryin' out loud, suck it up and shoot! Complaining about the weather is what you do after the match to prove to your wimpy friends back home that you aren't just another marshmallow.

If heat was really the issue (and i do not for a minute believe that it is), then petition the NRA to allow sun shades on the line. Or ask the match director to do in the name of maintaining a "safe" shooting environment. But complaining about the heat in Raton just doesn't cut it. It ain't that bad, and what heat and other conditions there are is part of the game.