Primers

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Kurt
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Re: Primers

Post by Kurt » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:34 pm

Mike the primers seat snug. I use a hand priming tool and it's a firm pull to seat them.
I did face the block with 1000 grit wet dry paper wrapped on a file.
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hepburnman
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Re: Primers

Post by hepburnman » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 am

I've basically always used Fed 215 Mag primers in both 40-65 and 45-70. I get excellent accuracy. I've tried CCI BR2 primers and get good accuracy but have not made sufficient comparisons to see if these provide better accuracy than the 215M primers. One thing I did notice was that the 215M primers give about 2-3 MOA of flatter trajectory, meaning that with the same sight setting the 215M reloads will print 2-3 MOA higher than the BR2s (at 385 m). This, to me, says that the 215M is giving me more complete burning of the powder. This is with 70 gr of 1.5 Fg Swiss.

I do not use over-the-primer wads and just slip-fit of the bullet into the case. I load into the rifling with GG bullets.

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losttrail
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Re: Primers

Post by losttrail » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:54 pm

For my .40-65, Win LRM primers with .450 diameter tissue paper as over primer wad. Not sure what the Quigley .45-110 is going to prefer but will start with the Win LRM.
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kenny s
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Re: Primers

Post by kenny s » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:50 am

I don't understand the LR Mag primers and then using an over primer wad?
won't one cancel the other out?
I use LR 210 Match , without primer wad, and it works...
never had much luck with Mag primers reg seems to work better.
Pistol will hurt the gun, and I don't want to go there...

interesting discussion. Ken

semtav
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Re: Primers

Post by semtav » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:18 am

kenny s wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:50 am
I don't understand the LR Mag primers and then using an over primer wad?
won't one cancel the other out?
I use LR 210 Match , without primer wad, and it works...
never had much luck with Mag primers reg seems to work better.
Pistol will hurt the gun, and I don't want to go there...

interesting discussion. Ken
Ken
In one of my rifles (40-82) using 80 gr Swiss, I use a the GM155M Large Pistol Match primers with a reduced primer hole(.060). Don't ask me why this works. I don't have a clue but it does. Can't get that combo to work with any other gun, but I bought the swager so I have Pistol primer pockets in those shells.
Will some other combo work?? Probably , but I have faith in this one.

rgchristensen
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Re: Primers

Post by rgchristensen » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:02 pm

I have about 12,000 Rd thru my Browning 40-65 with REM LP primers with no problem.

CHRIS

mark1buff0
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Re: Primers

Post by mark1buff0 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:24 pm

If you check your history you will see that in the late 1800s,to the early 1900s,there were two large rifle primers around one for smokeless and one for black powder, as it only requires 450 degrees to set off black and a lot more for that other stuff. I personally think if you are using mag. primers its possible to move the powder charge and bullet into the barrel before complete ign. thus creating wide vel. spreads, depending on how far it has moved. mark

BFD
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Re: Primers

Post by BFD » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:56 pm

mark1buff0 wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:24 pm
If you check your history you will see that in the late 1800s,to the early 1900s,there were two large rifle primers around one for smokeless and one for black powder, as it only requires 450 degrees to set off black and a lot more for that other stuff. I personally think if you are using mag. primers its possible to move the powder charge and bullet into the barrel before complete ign. thus creating wide vel. spreads, depending on how far it has moved. mark
Based on what we see in paper patched bullets, I do not believe this happens. The bullet, rather miraculously in my opinion, seems to expand in the case before it leaves. Even in bore diameter bullets which expand more than groove diameter bullets, which have very little resistance to moving forward at all, and which are seated less than 0.1" into the case. Expansion still happens there, in place.

bruce m
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Re: Primers

Post by bruce m » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:21 am

brent is right.
both William metford and an American have proven this.
smokeless on the other hand might well move a bullet due to its more progressive nature.
bruce.
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semtav
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Re: Primers

Post by semtav » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:09 am

Bruce ,
While I can't dispute your's and Brent's deductions, i have some observations that make me pause.
In both my 45-90 and 40-82, i always got a slight decrease in group size with GG bullets that needed no expansion when i switched to certain pistol primers.

Yet when i went to shooting paperpatch bulllets that were harder and needed a little more expansion with identical loads, not only did this not follow suit, they did not group at all with the pistol primers in the 45-90.

Something is causing this . Any theories.

bruce m
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Re: Primers

Post by bruce m » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:50 pm

brian,
the tests by metford and mann involved a spike which just barely touched the bullet prior to firing.
they knew that the bullet was in a particular position in relation to the spike by measurement.
on firing the bullet expanded and when it moved a scratch was left on the bullet.
metford at least was using hardened alloy, possibly with antimony added as well.
also, pictures of fired bore diameter bullets often show where the case mouth was in the form of a mark.
it never ceases to amaze me how 12:1 bullets bump up. but they do.
I have never tried straight lyman no 2, but 50% of this alloy with lead also bumps up well.
my own guess about primers and accuracy (for what it is worth) is that it is something to do with consistency of ignition.
certainly trying different primers can reap rewards, sometimes significant, at least as big as can trying different compression.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

Kurt
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Re: Primers

Post by Kurt » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:26 pm

Bruce you want to be careful when you go with 1/12 T/L alloys especially with a loose fitting PP bullet. If you go with a 1/12 you better make it very tight or breach seat it at at least .002" over bore diameter. and note that a .40 caliber using the same batch of alloy will obturate more than a .45 caliber.
These bullets I purposely patched .0015" under bore with a .06 polly wad under them to get a better measurement just how much they obturate. The top row was shot with a .40-65 and the bottom row was shot using a .45-90. and this was really a big surprise to see a lighter bullet with a lesser powder load will end up like this. The photo is not very good in resolution to see the land engravings
IMG_3197.jpeg
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Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Primers

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:31 pm

Even 10-1 bullets bump up just fine, a .445 patched with Seth Cole paper, in my bull Barrel Shiloh. Shot very well. Jim Bourne was spotting along with Bryan Youngberg, at Alliance in 2018.

I believe Kurt is possibly right that as long as it is a tight fit, hard alloy works fine. I believe Brent is also correct that the bullet begins to bump up at the moment of ignition. That 10-1 alloy shot well enough to be in a 6 Way tie at that Long Range match for second place. This year I was using 15-1, I took 2nd in scope, a run away scope, cost me the win most likely.....check your screw tightness. Still a great score. I used 15-1 in the 1000 yard BPTR Nation championship at Byers, I was 2nd overall, with a very good score. I will be using 14-1 this season, in longrange and probably in mid-range and what little Silhouette I shoot this year.

The Perry book shows the Alloy each shooter was using in 1879 Creedmoor and 14-1 was the softest. The majority used 11-1 this of course was all Paper Patch. This post leads into another post I will make separate. But alloy based.

Kenny Wasserburger
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bruce m
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Re: Primers

Post by bruce m » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:18 pm

kurt and Kenny,
I cannot speak of patched to undersized 12:1 bullets, as I have never used them with hard alloys.
my bullets slide into the bore with noticeable friction but no difficulty.
the ones recovered show much more bumpup then kurts, in fact full length of the patch.
they do show a much better nose shape than 16:1.
where I might be different than some is that in the 40/72 I use dual diameter bullets, with the bottom 1/10" of the bullet in fact being patched to groove.
fired bullets show no sign of being dual diameter.
the 45/2.4" bullets are simply patched to bore.
the harder bullet exhibit less drop at longer ranges, which translates into reduced wind deflection.
I had a greaser mould made up withal bands bore diameter but the base band, and this was guaranteed to lead a barrel with hard alloys.
I suspect because most of the bumping up happened in the grooves compared to the bands, and they were not sealing gas too well.
from perry to major hinman at the end of the era, 10:1 to 14:1 seems to be the range used in long range pp bullets.
there is evidence of 20:1 being used in hunting ammo in rounds like the 40/2.5", also for mid range.
these bullets were shorter than the long range bullets.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

beltfed
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Re: Primers

Post by beltfed » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:41 am

"Impact extrusion/swaging" when the fire lights
beltfed/arnie

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