Shooting my 40-65

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Bob B.
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Shooting my 40-65

Post by Bob B. » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:17 pm

Hi guys,

I joined this forum quite awhile ago when I purchased a used Shiloh Sharps in .40-65 caliber. I’ve always been a black powder shooter, as in NMLRA territorial competitions. I’ve shot both offhand flintlock and cross stick matches in the past. Anyway fast forward, I decided to pull the Shiloh out of the safe and give it a go. I’ve worked up a bunch of loads, both smokeless and Black. After reading a bunch of posts on various forums I can say that this particular gun seems to be very easy to work up loads for. I’ve successfully worked up MOA loads with smokeless 5744 and H4895. I’ve also worked up both grease groove and PP loads with Swiss BP. After reading much I was under the impression that I may struggle to shoot PP at first. Not so, I currently have two MOA loads with Swiss 1.5. The first is with a BACO 330 gr. At .402 patched to groove dia. on top of a .60 veggie wad and 58 grains of Swiss 1.5. The second I shot tonight for the first time. It was 65 grains Swiss 1.5 with a BACO 370 grain boolit .395 and .60 veggie wad patched to bore diameter. With this load I neck size only, with the patched to groove I do not resize at all. It shot a 1.00
group first time out at 100yards. I should mention this is an early Bryan rifle with 1:18 twist. BTW the most accurate load to date will shoot clover leafs at 100yds. BACO 260 grain flat nose gas check on top of 26 grains of 5744. Anyway the reason I posted this is because if you read all the forums regarding BPCR shooting you’d likely think they are hard to get shooting. Not my experience at all.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B. Franklin.

semtav
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by semtav » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:28 pm

some calibers/guns just seem to do that .
40-65 is one of them. The right components help.
I shoot a patched to groove load in my 40-65 also, but its .404 dia bullet.

SSShooter
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by SSShooter » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:25 am

Bob B. wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:17 pm
Anyway the reason I posted this is because if you read all the forums regarding BPCR shooting you’d likely think they are hard to get shooting. Not my experience at all.
Find a range where you can shoot 300yd+ and let us know your results with BP, which is what the great majority of us here shoot. 600-1000yd would be even better. If you use smokeless, then maybe 5gr max as a duplex load to meet the rules at most matches that allow any smokeless. You may find that the game changes once you stretch the distance a bit.

Another good test would be shooting a match with your BP loads. Craig Duncan is from NH (Londonderry if memory serves). He posts as 45bpcr on the forum. Hook up with Craig and head down to the October match at Ridgway (2-day Eastern Regional this past weekend) and see what you can do. Craig is always helpful in getting new shooters involved.
Glenn

Bob B.
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Bob B. » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:48 am

SSShooter,

I did not intend to give the impression that I thought shooting a BPCR at 300+ yards would be easy. I'm quite sure it takes a lot of practice and the right loads. My post was simply my experience as someone who has never done this sort of shooting before. I was shocked yesterday to shoot my very first paper patched to bore rounds into a 5 shot 1" group. I know it was only 100 yards as that is all my range has (a lot of trees in these parts) but it impressed me. Maybe I've just been lucky who knows but I'm having fun. As for Ridgway, that looks interesting. I'd have to figure a way to get around Mass., Conn., and NY to get there. Not sure I would enter any of those states with a firearm in my vehicle! :wink:

Bob.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B. Franklin.

SSShooter
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by SSShooter » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:31 am

Bob - talk to Craig (45bpcr). He does it at least once a month from Apr-Oct. I do so in NJ several times a month. PITA, but not a real problem.
Best of luck with all.
Glenn

bruce m
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by bruce m » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:00 pm

shooting past certain distances with a 260 gn flat nose is pushing up hill.
even 330 gns is a bit like that, but the twist dictates max bullet length.
use it for what it is and enjoy it.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

beltfed
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by beltfed » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:06 pm

Bob.B.
Jim Kluskens/Distant Thunder has a paper patch mold that he designed and cut for his 18 twist 40-65 with Long freebore.
Key is the bullet length was set so it stabilizes in 18 twist.
Bullet length is key: 1.25" long. a rather blunt modified Dual Diameter with Elliptical nose and large hemi Meplat
to increase weight.
I think it weighs around 380 gr. He has had very good results in BPCR Silhouette with the bullet.
I will suggest he chimes in here with details.
beltfed/arnie

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Distant Thunder » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:14 pm

Bob,

You might find this interesting, https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24611

If you have any questions I can try to answer them for you.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Distant Thunder » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:29 pm

And this was a follow up to that earlier thread, https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25321
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

Bob B.
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Bob B. » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:26 pm

Interesting links, I had already read them. As I said, I like to read and research things that interest me. Maybe why I’ve met with some measure of success. I’d love to try a DDPP boolit in this gun, although it has next to no free bore. A DDPP boolit would negate the need to neck size my fired brass and still allow for a decent powder charge. No.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B. Franklin.

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm

Getting around having to size the case necks is the main advantage of the 2-diameter PPB in grease groove chambers. The length of the base band (groove diameter or plus a bit) is made to suit each chamber. One size does not necessarily fit all. Shiloh chambers are one of the few you can count on for consistency and a 2D PPB designed to fit one Shiloh .45 caliber chamber will likely fit the others well too.

Once a 2D PP mold is made you can't easily adjust the seating depth so some thought needs to be given to that ahead of time. For target loads I find a very shallow seating depth to be best. I am right around .075" deep in my .40-65 with my 2D PPB. I am at .080" deep in my .45-70 with its special PP chamber and a straight sided bore diameter PPB. Both rifles shoot very well.

In my .40-65 the larger diameter is actually cut to patch to the freebore diameter which is .001" over the groove diameter. This also fits the unsized case mouth snug with the R-P cases I use. The chamber was cut for that brass and that diameter grease groove bullet (.409"). It is important to understand in both these rifles the chamber reamers with ground for a specific brand of brass and bullet diameter. Matching the chamber to the specific kind of brass and the bullet diameter to be use in that brass doesn't seem to hurt the accuracy any. Both are custom chambers and they work well.

In my stock Shiloh .45-90 with their standard grease groove chamber I used basically the same bore diameter PP bullet I now use in my .45-70. I was seating that bullet .090” deep and lightly taper crimping the case mouth to be just snug on the bullet. With Shiloh’s excellent standard chamber and very short freebore that bullet shot extremely well over 100 to 105 grains of Swiss 1 ½.

The wad used as well as the primer can make a significant difference in the accuracy. Each rifle is different in what it likes and only by trying the different types can you say for sure which is best.

As for groupings at 100 yards, what you’re getting is good, but it’s only 100 yards. To really prove the accuracy you need to move out to 500 yards and beyond. Then you’ll see things that will never show up even at 200 yards. It all depends on what you plan to do with the rifle. They really excel at longer ranges.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

Bob B.
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Bob B. » Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:48 pm

Well Jim, first let me say I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post in such detail, it is appreciated. Second being as this is a lite 40-65 with a 28" barrel and crescent butt, my goal is to employ it as a whitetail dispatcher this fall. Think I've got that covered. I'm strongly considering another BPCR and it would be aligned more towards target work. Seems like a great group of folks here and I've really enjoyed learning to shoot these black powder metallic cartridge rifles. Thanks!

Bob.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B. Franklin.

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desert deuce
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by desert deuce » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:50 am

Keeping in mind, historically, most of the loading and reloading of these cartridges was for hunting and self defense, not target work.

If I recall correctly, a popular original hunting bullet for the 40 calibers in the range of the 40-63, 40-65/40-70SS was the Lyman 406150.
The 403169 was popular for those calibers and the shorter 40 cases and if I am not mistaken is still available from Lyman.

BPCR Hunting bullets for deer are much like fishing lures, what is important is how they are viewed through the hunters eye, not the deer's.

For practical purposes, where and how you hunt should be the determining factor. The deer probably wouldn't care one way or the other.

From what you are saying there are several currently off the shelf moulds that would work just fine for your purposes in the 300-410 grain range, which includes the BACO line.

What matters is how well the bullet shoots in your rifle by your loading methods and only you can determine that.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

Bob B.
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by Bob B. » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:46 am

I was shopping BACO molds this morning, and this one peeked my interest. https://www.buffaloarms.com/403-380-gra ... jim403380e . Anyone have experience with it? Looks about right for 18 twist and a non PP chamber. It should come close to my .395 PP straight sided load with out the need to neck size and that would be ideal.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B. Franklin.

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desert deuce
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Re: Shooting my 40-65

Post by desert deuce » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

BACO moulds are top shelf.

If I were in your shoes, I would call Dave Gullo and ask his advice.
He is an avid big game hunter currently with BPCR Rifles.
Then there is always Red Neck on this forum whose advice is golden and experience broad.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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