The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

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SSShooter
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by SSShooter » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:39 am

desert deuce wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:15 pm
Allowing that he is probably quite a bit younger than you and I perhaps I should add one more point worthy of mention that may be helpful. That is remembering what the sight setting was on your last shot and knowing and remembering where that shot landed.
Yeah, Gerald. You kids......... :lol:
But, that is why they invented pencils & notebooks. One has time to record their shot/wind/windage in a BPTR match. If hurrying along to "shoot the condition" would be the only time that could be a problem.
Glenn

Dennis Armistead
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Dennis Armistead » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:10 am

desert deuce wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:27 pm
Coincidentally, accidentally, fortunately, was the discovery that controlling vertical dispersion on the target at long range was important.
That there "frequently" is (meaning quite likely, not always) a correlation between small variations in extreme spread on the chronograph and smaller vertical dispersions on the long range targets seem to be related. The correlation has been relied on for a while now and the results have been transmitted into practice. FWIW

Where it counts in long range is 1,000 yards. JMHO

Thinking of long range BPTR shooting then one could evolve into considering the control of vertical as more science than art and the control of lateral dispersion as more art than science.
Couldn't agree more. Here you are at the long line, you and spotter looking down range, judging mirage speed and boil. Buzzer goes off and the 30/30 time begins. 10 shots for record then switch....just a little bit of pressure. You want to get done in your allotted time so your buddy has their time also.
You get your sighters finished and then start shooting for score. Mirage boil and drift is going one way and then the next in between shots. 12 o'clock then 6 o'clock, 5 minutes right then 8 minutes left on the following shot. Wait...wait...wind is changing...etc. This is a common reflection that happens at the 1000. Clock is ticking, you scan your timer, you try and maintain a familiar cadence, blow tubing or wiping. Patches to wet...to dry...oh shit, the Arizona heat just dried out my patches! Have to run more wet...2 then 3 then 4 etc. It's definitely an art and experience than science. I try to set up my sights for "no wind zero" Elevation at 1000 then focus on wind drift. Don't know about other shooters but I do know my 540 gr. "mini money" travels at 1370 fps. My maximum bullet arc is 125' and my round goes sub sonic at 230 yards. Time of flight is around 3.3 seconds. The report of my shot hits the target at 2.6 seconds. The target pullers hear my shot before it even hits the target. There...is the science.
Hope this little glimpse of my experience ...helps. You gotta love the 1000.
Dennis
Experience trumps intelligence every time.

dbm
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by dbm » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:29 pm

desert deuce wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am
... shooting Creedmoor Cup Style here you have 20 minutes for sighters and ten record shots. First shot to cut paper is sighter #1, maximum 3 sighters then next shot is first record shot, there are no convertibles. Can take several shots to cut paper first time.
Long range matches (muzzle-loading) in the UK are generally 3 sighters and 15 shots to count, in 1hr 50mins; that's with 3 people sharing the target and alternating on shots fired. We don't have spotters. Like your matches, 1st sighter is the first one to cut paper. That's where for me having my record sheets help - for the range, distance and prevailing conditions I can generally look up sight settings for when I last shot in similar conditions - this can help significantly in cutting down number of shots to cut paper first time.

I note you don't have a lot of time! :)
desert deuce wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am
If you "practice" Cup Style on the clock you learn that you pretty much have to shoot through and can't wait out conditions.
With three to a target we don't have time to linger either... but plotting a shot on my record sheet takes just a few seconds. Sight settings only need a note when changed - same with wind strength / direction changes. We've been working with a good team of paid markers at Bisley for quite a few years now and get good support - but yes, slow/poor target pulling can be problematic and is a distraction the shooter doesn't need.
desert deuce wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:09 am
Shooting a cadence and smoothly performing the good shot release function proves a better approach than over analyzing and ending up shooting fast to catch the clock.
Agreed, there's enough external variables to deal with - compounding this with poor technique will hammer score.


David
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mike herth
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by mike herth » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:41 pm

Dennis, reading your description caused me to break out in a sweat, I’m going to need a brewski to calm my nerves. I thought BPTR was to be a relaxing sport soothing to one’s psyche.

Kenny, thanks for sharing your article, fascinating and illuminating. I started reading Perry’s book today and the first thing that caught my attention, other than his writing style, was the avoidance of wads, stating the base of the bullet should sit directly on the powder. Hmmm?
BPTR has grabbed my attention but I wish I were 30 years younger.

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desert deuce
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by desert deuce » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:33 pm

Cup Cadence: sight picture, trigger control, break shot clean, open breech, watch bullet into backstop, note conditions at shot, clear breech, bore pig and push, swab chamber, reload, read condition, set sights, sight picture, trigger control, break shot clean x 14. The read it, set it, shoot it, is where the art form plays a role and the only way I know to learn how to do this is to shoot in competition. Practice is more load and technique evaluation by comparison, shooting in competition is where it all has to come together. Competition is also where it counts.

Oh and yes dbm, we call it pair firing. Two shooters firing alternately at same target, unlimited sighters and ten for score in 63 minutes feels like enough time to take a nap compared to Cup shooting. This works really well IF both shooters share last shot sight settings and both rifles have the same dead wind zero. Each shooter keeps the other shooters score card. Pair firing works too well in fact in some minds. However, if in the prep period both shooters set their gear up for first shot and leave the rifle and ammo on the spotter/scorers mat set up alternate firing can come off fairly quickly because the second shooter essentially has very close to the correct sight setting for sighter shot #1. Especially of the spotter works off of his own shooting mat. This is also where target service is so, so critical. Frequently the following shot is a mere seconds into the back stop after the previous shot. If the pullers snooze you loose.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

art ruggiero
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by art ruggiero » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:38 pm

great thread! thanks to kenny and all that posted art

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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:47 pm

You are welcome Art.

Some of my best long Range match experiences have been at Ben Avery, it is a world class facility. As is Raton NM.

Kenny W.
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Gamerancher
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Gamerancher » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:02 pm

Having just shot at Bisley U.K, there's a very important variable that hasn't been mentioned that really effects your vertical @ 1000, the tailwind.
Miss that and you go from a centre 5 to a shot clear over the top. :oops:
Out in western NSW where it don't rain much.
Australia

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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Dennis Armistead » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:14 pm

Gamerancher wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:02 pm
Having just shot at Bisley U.K, there's a very important variable that hasn't been mentioned that really effects your vertical @ 1000, the tailwind.
Miss that and you go from a centre 5 to a shot clear over the top. :oops:
That's a big 10-4, that's why I mentioned the 6 o'clock/12 o'clock. Not reading those correctly will frustrate the hell out of you :shock:
Dennis
Experience trumps intelligence every time.

SFogler
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by SFogler » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:21 pm

Now I have a collection of Edwin Perry books on the way. :roll:

BFD
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by BFD » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:52 am

Dennis Armistead wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:14 pm
Gamerancher wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:02 pm
Having just shot at Bisley U.K, there's a very important variable that hasn't been mentioned that really effects your vertical @ 1000, the tailwind.
Miss that and you go from a centre 5 to a shot clear over the top. :oops:
That's a big 10-4, that's why I mentioned the 6 o'clock/12 o'clock. Not reading those correctly will frustrate the hell out of you :shock:
Dennis
it takes a push of over 10 mph to raise your bullet from center to over the top of the target at 1000 yds. That's a pretty big blast and it has to carry all the way to the target to do that. Vertical issues are usually more than just missed tailwind calls in my experience.

Pink Panther
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Pink Panther » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:22 am

Does anyone know what the ISBN 10 or ISBN 13 of the 1880 edition of Perry's book is?

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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:52 am

Modern observations on rifle shooting, with an improved system of score book, and including silicate slate for use on the range [Reprint] (1880)
Perry, Edwin A. [from old catalog]
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2019. Softcover. Condition: New. 150 Language: Language: eng. Reprinted from 1880 edition. The book is printed in black and white. Illustrations if any are also in black and white. Sewn perfect bound for longer life with Matt laminated multi-Colour Soft Cover. The content of this print on demand book has not been changed. Each page is checked manually before printing. Fold-outs, if any, are not included. If the book is a multi volume set then this is only a single volume. This is a reprint of a very old book so there might be some imperfections like blurred pages, poor images or missing pages. Bookseller Inventory # S990002135548
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Kurt
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Kurt » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:39 pm

You can read most of the old manuals and books here on line. I spend a lot of time here in the winter months.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/ls?fie ... hls;lmt=ft
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Old-Win
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Re: The 2016 World 1000 yard match.

Post by Old-Win » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:23 pm

While sitting here and watching the snow pile up, I thought I would take a closer look at what Perry’s Third Edition Green Book actually had to say. I’ve been meaning to do it for some time. I took a close look at the two pages of notes that Perry kept on each shooter and I saw one big surprise.
Perry mentions about some shooters not coming to the match because they didn’t want to have their loading secrets known. Seems as though they were great shooters from somewhere according to their scores in the newspapers. He mentions a fellow by the name of Partello that eventually did come for practice but then had to leave because of a sick child. Perry realizes that his secret is nothing more than loading his cartridge gun through the muzzle so that he could get in more powder than the shell would hold. This was to control elevation, the dreadful bugaboo.
But if you look carefully at Perry’s notes, 12 of the original 33 shooters were using this method and loading their breechloaders from the muzzle, all so it seems, to get more powder in the rifle. Loading a cartridge from the muzzle was not unknown as both Fulton and Hepburn loaded their rifles from the muzzle in the first Creedmoor match of 1874. Fulton shot the highest score of all shooters in 1874. Sharps even made at least one LR Borchardt with a false muzzle for that purpose. Was this the modern trend in LR shooting?
Some other things I thought were interesting:
33 shooters started the match and 11 had dropped out by the second day for various reasons.
14 shot LR Borchardts
3 shot 74’ Sharps. Were they out of favor by 1879?
13 shot Remington Creedmoors
1 Rigby
1 Ballard
1 Hepburn
1 Ferris
Muzzle loaders using breechloader rifles tended to shoot 5-10 grs more powder but not always.
The first 3 places shot Borchardts and used them as breechloaders.
Jackson shot the highest score with a Sharps and won the Sharps rifle.
Scott finished 4th with a Remington and won the Remington Creedmoor.
Farrow finished 6th and won the LR Ballard as he was the only shooter using a Ballard.
All but one shot the 550 gr bullet by weight.
All but one appears to have shot some form of the back position
$1119 given out as prizes.

I hope I got most of these figures right but I'm sure there are probably some mistakes in there.
You guys enjoy your Thanksgiving and gobble, gobble.

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