Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

[Kurt]

Dave to get to that 1% you better have your cases holding the exact amount of powder. The inside dimensions of your fired unsized cases has to be the same as well as the case neck diameters. And if your load happens to fall with less than .100 compression using a PP bullet the bullet has to fit the throat with minimal resistance so the compression does not change.
All this needs a lot of case prep to achieve to get that one percent.
Or maybe you have to weigh and index your primers also

[desert deuce]

Thanks Ross, that is a great article from 1989 and brings up some interesting points for consideration here.

Also, what Schuetzen Dave wrote was interesting. Certainly would like to know more about the equipment he used for the test he describes. He does have a relatively large 'sample'. Wonder what uniformity in caliber, components and rifle were recorded. I am guessing he may have used the same rifle and bullet, maybe not. Same lot of primers and powder, same chronograph, etc. Would say if he used a 32-40 would the findings be the same if he used a 38-55, or if the results would be confined to that particular rifle.

In using the 45-90 black powder rifle as an example my goal is to get to a match grade load...………...fast

[charlie young]

I sort of do everything backwards,I guess for simplicity sake and probably don't want to take the time to do things the right way. So all my load development is done from 900 or 1000 yds. shooting the same way as I shoot matches, cross sticks, and sitting. I'm curious if anyone has ever tested their loads and after that decided to chrono the loads and come to find out that even though the load shoots perfect it doesn't make all the data requirements that one would think it should. Just curious.

[hipshot1]

Charlie
Might be a Montana thing, I do the same as you do, If it will work at 1000, it should work at the rest. haven't used the chronograph in years.
Dave

[SchuetzenDave]

I fine tune rifles and custom hand load for numerous clients as well as having fine tuned my Schuetzen load and my BPCR rifles.
I have been the International Schuetzenfest Benchrest Champion on two occasions from fine tuning my .32 RKS Schuetzen rifle.
High powered rifles are tuned to 0.25 MOA and cast bullet rifles to 0.50 MOA after I bed the rifles or free float the barrels and properly stabilize the stocks.

I use a RCBS 10-10 scale to weigh all loads; but you must calibrate scale before using and tap the end of the pivot arm to ensure the scale is reading correctly. It will then precisely weigh precisely to 0.1 grain difference.

I only use fired cases and neck size only.

All cases have the primer pockets uniformed and the inside flash hole is tapered and uniformed.

With black powder I put a newspaper wad inside over the flash hole to prevent the fuse effect of BP being packed in to the flash hole channel.

For white powder I test a new lot with the same load as previously used +/- 0.1 grains testing 30 shot groups(cast bullets) or 10 shot groups (jacketed bullets) for each load.

When I weigh the black powder there is no need to test new lots since with the same compression with the same weight of powder it will result in the same density of powder (regardless if I have change powder lot).
However if you change weight and/or compression then you need to retest your loads and I verify it by comparing 30 shot groups.

I load cases with bullet ogive on the lands with rifles with short leades.

I use a tight factory crimp for jacket bullets with rifles which have to jump over a long leade.

For fixed case cast bullets I slide the bullet into the belled fired case; then get consistent neck uniformity by using the neck sizer die (with primer rod removed) to crimp it.

I only use Remington primers since they have a longer hotter flash and have been extremely consistent when I change lots.
I buy sleeves of primers (5,000/box) to ensure I have consistency.

I use Magnum and only Rifle primers with BP to ensure better burning of the powder and finer ash which reduces fouling (similar to using a duplex load).

Picture of my .32 RKS Miller DeHaas Schuetzen rifle using 236 grain Paul Jones Spitzer with 5shot groups shot at 100 yards demonstrating 0.5 MOA accuracy.

[SchuetzenDave]

For Schuetzen we use the .32 calibers since they have a recoil that is better to manage with the proper benchrest techniques.
You will always loose a bit of accuracy (due to recoil) as you increase your caliber or if you increase your powder load.

Calibers I have fine tuned:

.218 Bee, .223, .22-250, .25 RKS, .6 mm Rem., 6.5-55, .270, .280, 7 mm Mag., .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag., .35 Whelan, .38-50 Remington Hepburn, .38-55, .40-60 Maynard, .40-65 WCF, .45-70 Gov't. and will test a .50-70 Gov.t next.

And these calibers in more than one rifle and for the diversity of rifles being used today for hunting, Schuetzen or BP Silhouette.

[SchuetzenDave]

I only use sized cast bullets since it results in more consistent neck tension (than bullets that have neck flashings or base skirts after coming out of the mold).

[SchuetzenDave]

You may need to adjust your Schuetzen load by slightly increasing or decreasing your chamber volume with an adjustable seater.
Changes in temperature, atmospheric pressure, or elevation will affect your group size.

After I have confirmed my rifles load (30 shot group testing) I can fine tune it by moving the rod in my Weber Breech seater a 1/4 turn.

Here are 10 shot groups were I am testing the changes to my adjustable seater to fine tune it to weather or site changes.

[desert deuce]

Schuetzen Dave, can't tell you how much I appreciate you volunteering and posting this information. Fabulous!

Is it possible for you to share your findings with the 40-65 & 45-70 with Black Powder as that is probably what most shooters that post here have and shoot.

Montana Charlie, however you get there doesn't matter near as much as that you do get there I suppose. It's all good that is fun.

[SchuetzenDave]

I had bone spurs so I traded my CPA .45-70 for a 1874 Shiloh Sharps .40-65.
So I did not do that much testing with the .45-70.

For the .40-65:

Starline Cases - annealed, uniformed primer pockets and flash hole, fired, not sized, slight bell of mouth
R/P #9M LR Primer
Newspaper Wad inside case over flash hole
Swiss FFFg 53.7 grains
.060 Walters Vegetable Wad
Compressed .225" (found I could not compress it more than .230")
410 grain Boomer Money Bullet tight on lands
Alberta Schuetzen Lube
Flat crimped with Lyman Neck Die
Velocity 1,238 fps ES 10

I always test at least three loads 0.1 grain apart.
Regardless if using any smokeless or black powder I find there is a sweet spot about every 0.3 grains; where the barrel vibrations are less resulting in tighter groups.
Testing 1/2 grain loads against each other will frequently mean you do not find the sweet spot.

Over time: testing many powder loads and rifles; I found the group sizes told me more, so I sold my Chrony.

[SchuetzenDave]

I always use 20:1 lead:tin alloy for cast bullets used in rifles regardless of powder used and regardless of bullet shape.
It may be softer since tin alloys soften a bit over time and my bullets are always cast 6 months before I use them.

[desert deuce]

GREAT Dave! Now that is interesting. Will put it to use and see where it goes.

The guys at the range laugh at me when working on a Chicken load. I evaluate loads prone from cross sticks on paper looking for and finding sub minute of angle loads at 200 Meters.

The hard ribbing starts when I stand up and shoot off hand where it is remarked the same load won't hold minute of dump truck. Great sport for the peanut gallery who run for cover when offered the opportunity to try their hand. Then the discussion evolves to what is and is not a quality miss.

Such is life at the chicken line.

At midrange, however, the near distance is 300 yards and the target has scoring rings where deviation has a numerical value wherein with silhouette a hit is an X and a miss is a Zero and nothing in between.

And the really big problem begins at 800 yards and ends at 1,000 yards where again deviation has a numerical value from 6-10. Everything else is Zero. Here it seems that it is wise to begin consideration of ensuring a stable bullet at target and working backward to the muzzle of the rifle. Seems bullets destabilized, especially to the extent of tumbling, rarely shoot to call.

[SchuetzenDave]

For Gyroscopic Stability I always match bullets of the right length to obtain an Sg of 2.0 (to be able to handle weather changes or to maintain stability over long distances due to drag).
For Dynamic Stability: I use Spitzer bullets up to 300 yards; but prefer rounded nose (Creedmore) for long range although I have been playing with a Money nose for a few years (which requires more velocity due to more yaw of the bullet).

[desert deuce]

Started out at long range with 44-90 & 45-90 using Creedmoor style bullets from PJ Creedmoor, Brooks Creedmoor, Saeco 745 and the latest rendition of the Lyman Postel which by the way shoots as good as any of these as far as I could tell out to 1,000 and they really shine at midrange.

Enter that inquisitive tireless tinkerer Dan Theodore and that slick talker convinced me to try a money bullet of his design for my 45-90 and 44-90 made from moulds by Paul Jones to Dans specifications specific for the chamber in my 45-90 and Dan designed the chamber reamer and bullet for the 44-90. Needless to say, for long range I have never looked back. Since I have tried several different designs of money bullet, some shoot quite well and some not as well as others but I don't agonize over the so so shooters, I concentrate on the ones showing potential at long range.

Kinda like High School, dated a lot of real nice pretty girls, but only one was worth a hoot as a huntin' & fishin' buddy.

[SchuetzenDave]

Yah It was Dan that took me down the Money bullet path.
And Paul Jones molds with larger grease grooves and the Center of Gravity further forward (less bullet yaw) gave me the best results.