Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

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desert deuce
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by desert deuce » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:21 pm

As Perry recorded in 1880 it is the vertical in long range loads. Then the target was twice as wide as it was high. Today it is square and the bullseye is even smaller which makes the vertical even more important. Too bad they didn't have an Oehler 35P to aid in their trials.
He goes into discourse on the need for a rifle to hold elevation (vertical) on the target, something I have never seen before in print on the subject of Black Powder Cartridge Rifles from that era. He makes mention of Frank Hyde’s methods and that his targets spoke volumes on the subject of hand loading one’s own fixed ammunition when it came to holding elevation / vertical. Talk about some eye openers! The advice given was simple, increase the powder charge until elevation required, and the vertical was reduced to the minimum, then use 1-2 grains above that!
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:50 pm

Hummmm,


The fella that wrote that, :roll:


KW
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desert deuce
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by desert deuce » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:46 pm

Was easy to chum the big fish up to the surface. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:25 pm

Any way, the advice was sound in 1880, and it still is.

It even translates to shooting to 1 mile, when I shot that 8/10 string at the mile target, we measured the strikes vertical spread. Approximately 18 inches of vertical in the group.

Interestingly that was done with the old Hell Bitch Shiloh with a .446 Money PP mould 540 grs with 1-16 Alloy, I usual wad stack. Second barrel on this rifle and 1-18 twist.

Kenny W.
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

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desert deuce
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by desert deuce » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:23 pm

Now that Kenny is engaged in this conversation time for a prospective question.

PREAMBLE: I think we can agree that even when shooting groups with Black Powder Cartridge Rifles at 200 yards that wind deflection can disperse the groups laterally and minimizing that variable is more the skill (artistry) of the rifleman rather than a more precise measure of the rifle/load combination suitability for distances beyond 200 yards. Certainly 18" at one mile is closing in on precision due to the distance.

First cousin to the BUT Monkey is the WHAT IF Monkey: Since we do shoot the longer ranges and most here on the forum can find a 200 yard range rather than a longer distance handily, WHAT IF the group measure on the target was simply vertical distribution measure at 200 yards rather than considering lateral dispersion in the computation for future postal matches ?
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

SFogler
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by SFogler » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:52 pm

WHAT IF the group measure on the target was simply vertical distribution measure at 200 yards rather than considering lateral dispersion in the computation for future postal matches ?
Good idea

semtav
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by semtav » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:30 pm

desert deuce wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:23 pm
WHAT IF[/b] the group measure on the target was simply vertical distribution measure at 200 yards rather than considering lateral dispersion in the computation for future postal matches ?
Doesn't matter to me, but I'll leave that up to those that have been entering.
Probably going to close the current one down and open the next when I get in tomorrow night.

Aviator
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by Aviator » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:27 am

I'll play either way.

I lean toward thinking that being able to make wind calls (or guessing in my case :roll: ) is just a part of competing in long range, and should be included. It is definitely something that I need to get better at!

But it would level the playing field a little for those that live in windier parts of the country.

When doing load development, I often mostly ignore wind when shooting at 300 yards, and primarily look at vertical grouping. But I probably would be better off to always make my best guess, trying to get better at the guessing.

Perhaps we would include the vertical dimension as reference information, but the ranking would be based on total extreme spread.
The postal match is all for fun anyway!

semtav
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by semtav » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:49 am

I was thinking the same thing.
Jan- feb is probably gonna be hard to get a lot of shooting in anyways for most of us.

semtav
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by semtav » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:00 am

Someone could always stsrt a load development thread to keep track of good loads if they want . It doesnt have to end like the postal.

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desert deuce
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by desert deuce » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:07 am

You said a mouthful Semtav, January, February and March here in Southern Arizona are challenging weather wise.
Unfortunately, for long term health reasons protective eye wear such as sun glasses and sun screen are practically mandatory that time of year.
These no wind days make it difficult to see through the accumulated black powder smoke to the 200 yard distant target and extends range time.
But, somehow we manage.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by Woody » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:21 am

Is this one of "those days"?
dust storm.jpg
Woody
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Aviator
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by Aviator » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:21 am

Hey Zack, do you occasionally have to wear a shirt with long sleeves for a reason other than keeping the sun off your arms?

semtav
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by semtav » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:53 am

desert deuce wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:07 am
You said a mouthful Semtav, January, February and March here in Southern Arizona are challenging weather wise.
Unfortunately, for long term health reasons protective eye wear such as sun glasses and sun screen are practically mandatory that time of year.
These no wind days make it difficult to see through the accumulated black powder smoke to the 200 yard distant target and extends range time.
But, somehow we manage.
Ha ha !? Guess i should have said those of us that are participating in the postal :lol:
We do find way more fun things to do than poking holes in paper when its cold !!

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desert deuce
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Re: Standard Deviation vs Extreme Spread

Post by desert deuce » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:26 am

Hey Woody, or is it Woodie, that is a Haboob. Generally associated with the "SUMMER" monsoon season in Arizona. Tuff to shoot in.
January, February and March are not summer. But to snow diggers it may seem like it.
You have Winter...………..we have Summer
That's why snow birds go south in winter and north in summer.
So when I say Arizona is cool what I really mean is Arizona is COOL 8) 8) 8) 8)
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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