"Short" barrel 45-70 loads

[Kurt]

Let me put my thought into this.
What you have right now is a Farmer that in my opinion is set up as a hunting rifle. It's light, short barrel and a chamber in my opinion ideal for a black powder hunting rifle. The old Shiloh farmers had a very generous amount of freebore that can be made to shoot very well with the proper profile bullet for hunting using black powder. No need messing around with duplex because no wiping or blow tubing is needed to load a follow up shot and still hold the accuracy needed for a shot at reasonable hunting distances using a PP or a lubed bullet.
Now days the shooters for the target ranges use a different bullet than used for hunting. Even during the Creedmoor days they used a different profiled bullet for long range then used for repeated shots. For hunting you don't want a "bore" riding bullet that fits the bore tight. You can use a Government type round nosed like the Lyman 457-125 but the bore riding portion needs to be smaller then the free bore of the rifle so it will chamber in the fouled barrel.
Look at this old Ideal bullet mould selection, drop down to the 457 sizes http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm These ogives will work well for hunting with out fouling control. The 457-121 in my onion is the one I would use for hunting with black powder with out the need for fouling control for repeated shots fired. I use this bullet in my 95 Marlin .45-70 with black powder and I can lever all rounds loaded in the magazine tube without fouling control and holds good accuracy.
The bullets in the posted link like the 457-124, 457-126, 457-193, 457-107 type of ogives loaded in the case properly will load without fouling control. Those type of ogives will also work using a PP or a lubed grooved bullet of the proper diameter in your free bore throat very well.

Here is a hole in the target I shot with pout fouling control with a PP bullet at 200 yards fitting .45 basic cases to the .44-100 Remington caliber. That is a 100 round box emptied inside 4" without fouling control.

IMG_1242_zps765223af.jpeg

[mdeland]

Yup Woody, but your fingers will be blue or your tube will keep freezing up, as mine does. Got really tired of freezing my fingers or clearing frozen breath out of my blow tube. Didn't take me long after a few gong matches in the cold to see the advantage of Duplex use. Load, shoot, go stand by the heater and get ready for the next bank. No cleaning at all.
As far as smart and shooting in 20 degree F. or colder weather, I guess it's just a matter of how much one wants to shoot. We wouldn't shoot most of all winter here if that was the case. Last match at Birchwood, where we shoot the clang and bang matches each month, was -19 F at 10:00 AM and warmed all the way up to -14 F by match end. Wet wiping or blow tubing would be all but impossible in this environment. Even if you do get some breath up bore it will freeze and do almost nothing for fouling softening.
Actually I decided that was to cold for me to have any fun so stayed home and worked on the So. Mtn. rifle . One of the shooters later in the week told me he had some frost bite. The February match was called because of the cold.

[bruce m]

good post kurt
bruce.

[My_name_ain't_Roy]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. It's been a busy week, so haven't been able to check freebore, or do a cast yet. But I've got some good information to get started from y'all. Definitely going to go to BP with this one, on top of everything else, since it's such an early gun, it's got that huge firing pin hole. So I'm shaving primers. It's been exciting for me to get the replies from you guys. I just recently "officially" joined the forum, but I've been here as a guest for at least 10 years, so I've become familiar with a lot of names.

[Distant Thunder]

Welcome in out of the shadows, Roy!
Yeah, I forgot all about the large firing pins on those old ones. BP would probably be best.

[Distant Thunder]

bruce,

I've spend many days shooting a flintlock in some very cold weather and all I ever used to clean between shots was a spit patch and I spit patched my RB too. Never had a problem. Of course both types of patches were wetted just before cleaning or loading, not sitting around wet and freezing. I'm smarter these days and I don't do much shooting below 10 degrees with any type of firearm.

[Kurt]

My Farmer is earlier than yours and it has the large one piece firing pin and the primer hangs up when dropping the block shaving it. I had a spare XXB block and took measurements and it was identical of the old block and fits with out having to make any changes and the same head space as the old block. The firing pin hits center as well.

[bruce m]

jim,
I just think kurt's many shot group is better than some can do when wiping.
it just goes to show what can be done by a man who has done a few miles but has a few left in him.
hunting with that load/rifle would be easier than other methods sometimes employed.
we see good things on forums.
bruce.

[Kurt]

Bruce,

That rifle does not have the modern chamber with a 45 degree transition into the throat. That rifle has a chamber like what the originals used and I had a reamer made from a chamber cast of an original .44-100 Hepburn rifle that was actually used for the creedmoor matches in the 1870's and I sent it in the PT&G and had Dave make a chamber reamer and a separate reamer I can use for making the proper dies.
I had to make one change on the neck dimensions for the .438/.446 bore grooves because Remington used a larger diameter that is almost a .45 diameter.

IMG_2576 (1).jpeg

Here are some chamber casts of my chambers except the top cast is from a original 1874 .44-77 Sharps as well as the third from the top. You can see that the long throat is tapered but the taper is as long as what the freebore used in the old Farmers. The original .44 Sharps has about a 3.5 degree transition as near as I can measure it.

IMG_2502.jpeg

[Distant Thunder]

I understand how the old original chambers were cut with the long tapers, I have a roller with such a chamber.

However, I have a few question about whether that is the right chamber for a target rifle.

If you figure a 7 degree angle coming from the OUTSIDE of the case say in a .44 caliber, you have a throat that starts at .468-.470" diameter and extends for approximately 3/32 of an inch. Let's use a .447" groove diameter bullet as an example. That means the tapered throat starts at a diameter as much .023" larger than the bullet and almost .100" long. If you use a 5 degree angle the diameter is the same but the length is longer.

When fired why wouldn't the bullet upset into this unsupported area immediately in front of the case? If it does upset to .470" diameter at any point that section then has to be squeezed back down to the groove diameter of .446" and .438" for the lands. That to me seems to be a lot of squeezing!

Now understand that for a bullet to upset at all it must get shorter, the material has to come from somewhere and it comes from the length. Then the bullet has to get longer when it is squeezed back down into the land and groove diameters. I've given this some thought and I can NOT see how all that lead moving around is the best way to go. I'm not saying it does not work to some degree, but is it best? I can't see it and no one has yet explained to me how this is the best chamber design for a target rifle, although many have recommended such a chamber.

One of the most often stated advantages is the elimination of lead and/or paper rings. Really? If your brass is the correct length for your chamber you don't have paper/lead rings, at least I don't.

If you want a rifle chambered the way they were back in the "old days" then I can understand having your rifle so chambered. I'm looking for the most accurate chamber for paper patch bullets that I can get with out the expense and time of a custom reamer. Then I design my bullets to fill all available space so any bump up before entering the rifling is minimal and that then means any squeezing down for the groove and bore diameters will also be minimal. That combined with seating my bullets out as far as possible is working for me and working very well.

Now if I was building a purely hunting rifle I think these long tapered lead angles starting at the outside of the case mouth could be a plus, allowing follow up shots to chamber more easily by having a larger diameter in front of the chamber for fouling. But I'm a target shooter, I wipe between shots and fouling is not an issue when I do it correctly.

Now if someone can explain how the large diameter tapered lead is an advantage for a target rifle I'd really like to hear from you. Pease don't delay though, my .44-77 is soon to be chambered and I have very little time to change my mind.

So who is winning Creedmoor matches with one of the oversized tapered lead chambers? With paper patch or lead bullets. That might help convince me there could be some good for the target shooter in that type of chamber.

Please understand, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here, I honestly want to know how this all works. I know there are shooter who are really happy with this type of chamber and that's good. Just tell me why this is how my target BPCR should be chambered, please.

[Kurt]

Jim,
My chambers will not except a GG bullet, they are too tight. There is just enough space for the bullet too obturate to seal the gas with out too much of the bullet getting expanded and again getting swaged back down as it enters the throat. This is what the old chambers also had. I use this type of chamber for the .40-65, 44-75 Ballard, .44-100 Rem. .44-90 BN and the .45-90. All of those chambers have the 5/2.5 degree compound throat as well as a 4/1.5 and 5/2.5 compounds. Yes they have a long concentric throat but they work. The bullet does not get ironed out expanding in the large neck of a standard chamber diameter and when it hits that 45 degree wall pulling the lead back like running a roller pin over bread dough
One other thing I found is a .44-75 balled round shot in the .44-100 Rem chamber does not loose accuracy now that is a bunch of free bore but it does have an issue if it's good or bad and that is you loose a little powder capacity.

44-75 Ballard Everlasting.jpg

IMG_NEW.jpeg

[martinibelgian]

Jim,

After working with the 'normal' chambers with 45-degree case stop and shooting original military rifles, I do believe the idea has its merits. After all, your bullet is going to upset also in the 45° transit area, and be squeezed down much ore abruptly, potentially even causing some lead shearing. Which means leading in the bore. Also, the 'modern' chamber is much more critical to case length variations.
My current experience bringing home this message is with a 32-20: My old barrel had a pretty shallow transit angle, and would shoot about anything well, regardless of cartridge configuration. However, the barrel was close to 'toast', so I needed a new barrel - hence a new reamer, modern design, minimal dimension, short .309 freebore, 45° case stop. It is MUCH more fussy as to load development, where the other barrel / chamber digested everything with good accuracy, even though it was a bit sloppy. I am getting there, but it takes a lot more effort to do so...

[Kurt]

Whoops forgot, both of my .44-77's have that lead also.

[martinibelgian]

Other case in point is my favourite caliber, no.2 Musket: I shoot it both in Match rifle, and in military rifle. Despite less than perfect bores, crude sights, thin barrels etc., those military rifles can really shoot - if your eyes are up to it. Fact is, I'm shooting groove-dia.bullets in it, and that smooth transition does help.
Mind you, the modern chamber shoots ligths out too - but is much more delicate as to case length, neck thickness etc. Compared to a shallow - angle chamber, a real 'prima donna'. Everything has to be just right, which just isn't the case with the 'original' chamber configuration. To be honest, even in my match rifles, for now the groove-dia. bullet seems to outperform the bore-dia. bullet. It is what it is...

[Distant Thunder]

I shoot paper patch bullets in tight grease groove chambered rifles and all have the 45 degree chamber stop (end).

One is a Shiloh .45-90, it has Shiloh's excellent, tight standard GG chamber. In it I shoot straight sided bore diameter PPB with excellent results and match winning accuracy. I never had any paper rings or leading. I won my first two Creedmoor matches with paper patch bullets using that rifle. I did tweak the bullet design some in the year leading up my first win, but it was the easiest load development I've ever had with paper patch bullets.

Now that bore diameter bullet did bump up tp .459" for the .090" of it that was in the case and the .050" long freebore Kirk uses in his chambers, but that is only .001" over groove diameter, not .482" that an angle starting at the outside of the case would be. That's a big difference! If I were to go back to shooting that rifle for matches I would use a 2-diameter PPB that would be patched to .459" to start with and would not bump up at all in that area. The rest would be sitting in the bore and would bump up to .458" as it must by design.

Then there is my C. Sharps 1875 .40-65 with a Badger barrel. This one has a .400" long freebore at .409" diameter and I have been shooting that rifle with a 2-diameter bullet for a few years now. The only time I had paper rings was when I had some brass that was .020" too short. I weeded out the short brass and the rings were gone. Accuracy is excellent and I have won several matches with that rifle, silhouette and mid-range. The bullet is designed to minimize the upset of the bullet in that chamber.

Next is my C. Sharps 1874 in .50-70. That is also a Badger barrel. The chamber has a .350" freebore. Because the bullets I use in it are rather short I designed a groove diameter PPB, actually several, that seats a little more in the case depending on weight and does not enter the bore at all. The bullet bumps up no more .001-.0015" in the case and freebore. The accuracy in excellent. This is a hunting rifle not a match rifle, but I have won gong matches out to 500 yards with this rifle.

If the freebore is cut correctly and the brass isn't short the gap in front of the case is at most .021" long (usually less) and .011" deep against the case and tapers to the freebore diameter at 45 degrees. From my experience a correctly sized PPB does not upset into this narrow gap enough to cause the problems the long tapered leads of the original chambers are so good at smoothing out. I do not have paper rings, I don't see anything on my recovered bullets that shows a sign of any distortion of the bullet at that point. If it happens it's minimal, which is exactly what I want.

My current match rifle has a tight paper patch chamber and a 45 degree chamber stop at goes immediately into the rifling lead, I think 3.5 degrees, and then the bore. Accuracy is excellent, I have won many Creedmoor matches with this rifle, and I have no paper rings and never have had. The only load development I had to do with this rifle is finding the wad and primer it liked best. Pretty easy really. Some say these tight chambers don't really work, but mine does.

I am investing my money and time in a Shiloh .44-77 and I want to use it for match shooting with PPB. I want the chamber I feel will give me the best chance of being successful with it and so far that is Shiloh's standard GG groove chamber.

I can also point to many other shooters who have been and are successfully competing with PPB in the standard Shiloh chamber. I know it works.

I will continue to follow the use of the original style chambers and see if there is a benefit to using one. If I see that there is I may be looking at having a rifle so chambered and use that in matches to see what the affect is. This .44-77 that is in the works now will be the standard chamber.