"Short" barrel 45-70 loads

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My_name_ain't_Roy
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"Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by My_name_ain't_Roy »

Searched the forums, but not coming up with what I'm looking for, so I'll pose the question: is anybody out there shooting a 26" barrel 45-70 with paper patched bullets, and would you share your recipe ? I'm new to BPCR loading, and wondering if the shorter barrel necessitates different powder granulations/weights/wad combos than the 30"+. I've got an early Farmingdale that I was told is a "Hunter" model, with the short tapered round barrel. So far I've been loading smokeless (gasp !) It's a sub MOA rifle with (double gasp ! !) Hornady FTX bullets at around 1825 fps. But I'm starting to feel like I'm committing blasphemy against the Holy Black every time I fire that load in a Shiloh. Suggestions ?
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Distant Thunder
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by Distant Thunder »

Well, Roy, a few more pieces of the puzzle would help us help you.

What kind of black powder do you have access to?
What cast bullet would you be working with?
Is this for hunting or do you plan to shoot any competition with it?
How far do you plan to shoot with this Hunter?
Do you have any idea what the chamber looks like?

Answers to those questions will give us a bit more to work with.

You can't really enjoy the full value of these rifles until you shoot them with paper patch & black, IMHO. That's the way God intended them to be shot!
Jim Kluskens
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Distant Thunder
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by Distant Thunder »

Well, Roy, a few more pieces of the puzzle would help us help you.

What kind of black powder do you have access to?
What cast bullet would you be working with?
Is this for hunting or do you plan to shoot any competition with it?
How far do you plan to shoot with this Hunter?
Do you have any idea what the chamber looks like?

Answers to those questions will give us a bit more to work with.

You can't really enjoy the full value of these rifles until you shoot them with paper patch & black, IMHO. That's the way God intended them to be shot!
Jim Kluskens
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My_name_ain't_Roy
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by My_name_ain't_Roy »

Certainly. I have taken it out for elk, (didn't get one) and would like to use it for pronghorn. It has the silver blade front, semi-buckhorn rear, and the simple Shiloh-made tang for sights. I've won a few local Turkey shoot type matches, but I don't know if the sight combo and barrel length is going to get me very far in any real matches. My plan is to use this rifle to become familiar with black powder loading, and then step up to a more appropriate rifle for competition. I've got the Q in my sights for next year. I have a supply of Goex FFg, and was looking at trying some of the BACO bullets in the 450gr range before I invest in molds. A chamber cast is in the near future. And so is measuring twist. My local range goes out to 500yds, so that's my max for now.
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by MSalyards »

PM sent.
mdeland
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by mdeland »

I'm really going to upset the apple cart "Matthew" with my suggestion of duplex loading black powder. I don't regularly shoot PP bullets in my BPCR but have used them on occasion and they worked fine. In both of my match grade 45-70's I like 6 grains of Reloader 7 behind 60 grains of Swiss 1.5 or Goex 2 F and 500 grain range (Lyman Schmitzer and PJ Creedmoor) grease bullets (I have not tried Duplex loads using PP bullets) but see no reason it would not work . Duplex loads are not legal for NRA competition but work very well for cold weather gong or hunting loads with the added benefit of not having to clear fouling for as long as you care to shoot.
I'm betting they work very well in your shorter barrel.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by Distant Thunder »

I'm betting skipping the black powder and using just smokeless would reduce the fouling even more and save on time and consumables needed for clean up!

I guess it just depends on how far down that road you are willing to go. It would be an individual's choice.

You'd have to go to a groove diameter paper patch bullet, but apparently that can be made to work.

Then the next step down that road would be to sell your Sharps and rid yourself of all the limitations inherent in that rifle and use the money to buy a Ruger No. 1 or No. 3 in .45-70 and you'd have a real smokeless rifle.

And the next step is to move up to a real rifle, one with a turn bolt that pushes jacketed bullets at over 3000 fps! Follow up shots would be so much easier. And clean up, what clean up!

The next step would be a semi-automatic or maybe even full auto or better even still if it's full auto and belt fed! Now you're talking!

I guess it's a matter of choice! We all have to make them ourselves.

I guess my point is that they all will work, you just have to decide what your goal really is.

Why are you using a Sharps rifle in the first place? And why are you asking about making the jump to black? And paper patch bullets?

Be honest with yourself in the answers. If you really find the reason to be that you know these rifles were meant to shoot BP and PPB and that's where you want to go, know you should go, then don't comprise.

Good, accurate BP/PPB hunting loads can be made and it's not that hard. There several people on this forum and also historicshooting.com that would be willing to help you achieve that goal. They would be better in helping you than I would with those type loads.

These days I don't hunt with my Sharps rifles anymore and when I did I used, !gasp! grease groove bullets! My .50-70 was very effective out to my self imposed limit of about 250 yards.

The reason your question caught my is that I did have a Shiloh with a 26 inch round barrel and I did carry it for hunting, but we're talking about the "old" days when I was young. I was where you are now and was new to BPCR and didn't know how to best make BP work for me. Once I got into competition the goals changed and with aging eyes hunting fell by the wayside.

It seems I got to the age where my eyes just couldn't see the irregular shapes of animals at any greater distance that 80 yards without the aid of a scope. Now with paper patch bullets working so well for me and my acceptance of the need for a scope in silhouette competition I am rethinking the BPCR hunting thing and I hope to give it another go. I'll never make up for lost time but I will have fun!

Think through, decide what your goal is and then make it happen. You have a great rifle, it is best used as it was designed, but it's your rifle and you have decide how to use it.

I will close with this, once I made the jump to black powder and dropped the smokeless I never looked back!
If you do go that way enjoy the journey, it's the best part!
Last edited by Distant Thunder on Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jim Kluskens
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Distant Thunder
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by Distant Thunder »

I'm betting skipping the black powder and using just smokeless would reduce the fouling even more and save on time and consumables needed for clean up!

I guess it just depends on how far down that road you are willing to go. It would be an individual's choice.

You'd have to go to a groove diameter paper patch bullet, but apparently that can be made to work.

Then the next step down that road would be to sell your Sharps and rid yourself of all the limitations inherent in that rifle and use the money to buy a Ruger No. 1 or No. 3 in .45-70 and you'd have a real smokeless rifle.

And the next step is to move up to a real rifle, one with a turn bolt that pushes jacketed bullets at over 3000 fps! Follow up shots would be so much easier. And clean up, what clean up!

The next step would be a semi-automatic or maybe even full auto or better even still if it's full auto and belt fed! Now you're talking!

I guess it's a matter of choice! We all have to make them ourselves.

I guess my point is that they all will work, you just have to decide what your goal really is.

Why are you using a Sharps rifle in the first place? And why are you asking about making the jump to black? And paper patch bullets?

Be honest with yourself in the answers. If you really find the reason to be that you know these rifles were meant to shoot BP and PPB and that's where you want to go, know you should go, then don't comprise.

Good, accurate BP/PPB hunting loads can be made and it's not that hard. There several people on this forum and also historicshooting.com that would be willing to help you achieve that goal. They would be better in helping you than I would with those type loads.

These days I don't hunt with my Sharps rifles anymore and when I did I used, !gasp! grease groove bullets! My .50-70 was very effective out to my self imposed limit of about 250 yards.

The reason your question caught my is that I did have a Shiloh with a 26 inch round barrel and I did carry it for hunting, but we're talking about the "old" days when I was young. I was where you are now and was new to BPCR and didn't know how to best make BP work for me. Once I got into competition the goals changed and with aging eyes hunting fell by the wayside.

It seems I got to the age where my eyes just couldn't see the irregular shapes of animals at any greater distance that 80 yards without the aid of a scope. Now with paper patch bullets working so well for me and my acceptance of the need for a scope in silhouette competition I am rethinking the BPCR hunting thing and I hope to give it another go. I'll never make up for lost time but I will have fun!

Think through, decide what your goal is and then make it happen. You have a great rifle, it is best used as it was designed, but it's your rifle and you have decide how to use it.

I will close with this, once I made the jump to black powder and dropped the smokeless I never looked back!
If you do go that way enjoy the journey, it's the best part!🙂
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
mdeland
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by mdeland »

Jim makes several good points about personal choices , Sharps rifles,paper patch bullets and straight black powder.
I suppose the British felt much the same about the U.S. using cartridge rifles instead of muzzle loading long range rifles at Creedmoor (although they both used straight black and patched bullets) but the Sharps and Roller cartridge guns still beat them.
Early duplex cartridge loads were made with differing grades of black powder which reduced fouling, almost from the beginning of cartridge use. It is not even remotely a new idea. It was used almost exclusively in the Schutezen era (on the heels of the buffalo ) with semi-smokeless and continued on when full smokeless powder came into use.
In cold weather applications it is very practical if one still likes the smell, sound and look of BP use. Straight BP use is a real pain in the keester when the mercury plummets as the fouling will behave just as it does when its a hundred degrees out. True,it is one more step in reloading but many less steps (as in zero) on the other end in fouling control. Wet patching at 20* F or colder, between shots becomes very not fun in a hurry and blow tubing is a non starter in real cold.
Heck,if the goal is historical correctness then straight black powder and a patched round ball is the way to go!
I would recommend giving duplex loads a fair trial to see if they can be a benefit to your rifle. It only takes a few grains of appropriate smokeless powder to clear the fouling of BP out of a barrel. I use 10 percent as it is accurate in my two 45-70's but would start at 3-5 grains if you are interested in finding out for your self if it works. Usually I find folks who say it is no good or dangerous have not given it a fair trial.
mdeland
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by mdeland »

I should have more accurately said duplexing was used almost exclusively in the beginning of the Schuetzen era as semi smokeless and then full smokeless took over just as grease bullets supplanted paper patched bullets.
Personally I like and use to one extent or another all the methods discussed and feel the sport would be diminished by the elimination of any.
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by powderburner »

I use a 26 in barreled rifle and with a 440 diameter 70-1wrapped to 446 with thin paper
And shoot all winter with no problems at all. I get a few jack rabbits now and again
My load is 75 gns of 1 F a thick grease cookie between two wads No problem.
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pete
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by pete »

Back in the 1870's for Sharps rifles it was only black powder but not only paper patch. Many calibers were also grease groove available. They were called naked bullets, grooved balls, ring balls, crannelured bullets.... but not greasers.
mdeland
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by mdeland »

I think if you try a 30- 40 round match at 20F or below with straight black and wet patching you may have a different take on cold weather ,straight black shooting, my fingers still hurt. :lol:
Woody
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by Woody »

Mike,

Most of us are smart enough to not shoot a match in that kind of weather. BTW, wiping and blow tubing can be done at 20 degrees.

Woody

(Yes Mike, I have seen cold. That's why I ran my 1911 w/o lube during the winter while I was a Deputy.)
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Re: "Short" barrel 45-70 loads

Post by bobw »

1st things first, you said it was a Farmer so determine the amount of freebore you have. Close the action on an empty chamber and put a cleaning rod in from the muzzle and wrap a piece of tape around the rod level to the muzzle. open your action, pull back the cl rod 5" or so, stick a bullet in backwards using the eraser end of a wood pencil to shove it in as far as it will easily go, hold it there, now ease the cl rod down to the back end of the bullet. Mark the rod with a piece of tape again. now tap the bullet out. Measure between your tape edges and subtract 2.1" and you will have the length of the freebore. If it is more than a 1/4"( some were) you would probably be better off patching to groove dia. With less freebore patching to bore dia is the way to go in my book. Do as you like. bobw
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