44-90-470 cartridge

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Bear River Longrider
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44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

I just disassembled an old 44-90 cartridge. Can anyone help identify what material that card wad might be made of? Also, I was told this is a Remington cartridge. I don`t think a 470 grain bullet is listed in anything Sharps produced.
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rgchristensen
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by rgchristensen »

Interesting -- lots of ctgs called "44-90". What is the case length, head diameter, neck diameter? Ken Howell has 2 Sharps ctgs, COTW has 2 Remington, 1 Sharps.

CHRIS
Bear River Longrider
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

Cartridge OAL 3.445, Cartridge length 2-5/8, Neck dia. .463 at bottleneck to .460 at case mouth, Patched bullet dia. .440 weighing 469 grains, Powder charge 88.5 grains. Interestingly, the case mouth was heavily chamfered; almost to the point of a sharp edge at the case mouth.
rgchristensen
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by rgchristensen »

Well, that's the regular 44-90 Sharps bottleneck, which they labeled 44 - 2 5/8. As far as bullet weight, you probably could get about anything you wanted. The target bullet seems to have been 520 gr, but the buffalo hunters favored lighter ones. They also loaded various powder charges between 90 and 105 gr.

CHRIS
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SharpsBig50
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by SharpsBig50 »

Neat Post, thanks for sharing. What does the base of the bullet/patch look like? The wad looks thick like a lube wad.
Bear River Longrider
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

Thanks for the input fellas! Here`s a picture of the patch tail, and maybe if you look close you can see the heavy bevel on the case mouth.
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Tomklinger
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Tomklinger »

Bear River Longrider,
Some of the original rounds I’ve taken apart had either a thin hard card wad and a grease wad, or like the one you have. The thick wad material is almost identical to the hard over powder wad that a muzzle loading shotgun uses. They are .125 thick and made of hard compressed card board. I use 125 thick over powder wads in some of my large cases to take up room. I use my wad punch and cut them out of 12ga. Over powder shotgun wads.
Tom
Bear River Longrider
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

Tom thanks for that - I think you`re right about that being a card. I am just a bit scared to go poking at this thing because it seems to be in tender condition. It`s trying to turn to flakes and crumbs. I guess after 150 years or so you could expect that eh?!
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Distant Thunder
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Distant Thunder »

BRL,

Looking at the patch it appears the bullet was seated fairly deep? Looking in the case mouth (2nd picture) there doesn't seem to be enough room to seat the bullet that deep? Do you know just how much of the bullet was actually in the case?

Thank you for posting this. It's always very interesting to see original cartridges and bullets and get some insight into how they were loaded at the time.
Jim Kluskens
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Bear River Longrider
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

Distant Thunder-
That round was seated exactly .500 into the case. The clean white portion of the patch was under brass.
In the photo the powder and wad are just loosely reloaded in the case.
Dave Lee
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bobw
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by bobw »

A few years back at the big SCA show in Denver I bought an original 44 2 5/8 load. I guessed at the time it was a heavy bullet load as it hung way out. On the way home I started get measurements and pulled it a part. The round nose flat point ppb was swaged and had the deep ,thin skirted cup base weighed 520 grs, was only seated .125" in the case, lube wad over 2 hard cards .015" each and 103.6 grs of Fg. It I believe was an original Creedmoor load or LR. Back in the Creedmoor gun days they were chambered for 44 2 5/8" and some in 44 2 1/4" and yeah they were loaded with lube wads. After Hartford production ceased and the move made to Bridgeport things changed, they went to the 45 2.6" straight hull for apprx 11 months then on to the 2.4" hull with no grease wads(lube wad) and the guns were known as Long Range models #1 thru #4. At the time Sharps and UMC ammo for Sharps cartridges were not headstamped as well as featured Berdan priming. bobw
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Bear River Longrider
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by Bear River Longrider »

Bob -
That`s an awesome cartridge you found there - I might replicate that as close as I can for my 44 -90 and see how it shoots. Is this cartridge I have shown here Berdan primed? I`ve never had a chance to really learn about these old cases.
How thick was the lube wad in your cartridge?
bobw
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by bobw »

Looks Berdan to me, but measure it's diameter pocket edge to edge newer primers run at .210 and Berdans were larger diameter. You can also shine a light into the case after you remove the powder and should see the 3 flash holes. When they reloaded these cases they punctured the old primer with an awl, they held the case in a hole bored thru a board over their knees and thigh. Stuck the old primer with the awl and pried it out. Used a capper to install the new one after they picked the ash and debris from the primer pocket. Lube wad was 3/16" just like they recommend in the loading instructions. They could accomplish so much with so little tooling it was simply wonderous. bobw
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bobw
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by bobw »

Hey BRL send me a pm with your e-mail addy and I will try to take a pic of that load with my phone and then you can post it. Haven't learned all I need to know about this new smart phone yet. bobw
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kenny sd
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Re: 44-90-470 cartridge

Post by kenny sd »

interesting thread
big ctg... interested in the powder charge and type.
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