The importance of Lube cokies with PP loads

[martinibelgian]

No, not just the presence of any kind of grease cookie, but the makeup of the cookie itself. This was driven home to me recently. I shoot military rifle in competition with a PP bullet. Here, military rifle competitions will not allow cleaning between shots, but blowtubiing is allowed. So as I wanted to shoot PP bullets in military rifle competition, I had to find a way to make it work with blowtubing. What is required is 13 shots without accuracy loss, + any foulers of course.

In due time, I succeeded in developing a load for my military rifles (all Martini's, both in no.2 Musket and 577-450) with a grease cookie, which allowed me to shoot without accuracy loss and be kinda competitive (sights are of course a disdvantage when comparing to the Trapdoor). Until a certain moment, that is... I experienced a gradual degradation of accuracy, usually the 1st shots being on call, while the following shots became more and more 'erratic'. At 1st, I blamed the 'nut behind", the rifle, whatever - but as this happened with all of my rifles, at the same time, it had to be a common factor. To make a long story short, I finally narrowed it down to the grease cookie as the culprit.

Up to then I was using the same lube cake for cutting my lube cookies, adding more lube (components) whenever required. It was a beeswax/lard/canola oil based lube cookie, pretty thick (about 6mm or 1/4 inch for you guys).

The final proof was making up a new batch of lube of fresh beeswax and - this time - avocado oil, and try that stuff. Results? Accuracy came back, to what is was before degradatiion of the previous lube took place.

Whih brings me to my point: 1 way or another, there must have been something that changed in or disappeared from my old lube to cause this accuracy degradation. I now know a fresh batch of lube for the lube cookies will solve the issue, but what would be the cause? Accuracy difference being from keeping all shots in the 9-ring of the ISSF 25m pistol target (about 4 MOA) to not even being able keeping all shots in the black. No specific fouling issues were seen with the 'bad' lube, just bad accuracy.

The lube cookie in both cases was sandwiched between 2 card wads, and the PP bullet was groove diameter - although that means close to bore diameter at the chamber end, given a Martini's throat/bore configuration... The most recent test produced excellent accuracy with the 'fresh' lube cookie, with 6 shots out of 12 in 2 MOA shooting prone, sling only, military issue sights.

[buffalocannon]

I make my lube cookies out of beeswax and avocado oil. Works the best for me of any other mixture I have tried.

[bobw]

Gert, I've used more than a few different lube wad mixes when patching to groove or bore as needed. Now days I only use 1 mix, 2 parts by weight of jojoba oil to 1 part by weight beeswax. I pour the mix into lube wad molds for complete uniformity of thickness. This mix works to keep fouling moist enough to get by with a blowtube and still maintain accuracy under most conditions. When outside temps get to great and humidity gets to low you have to wipe, In your climate that is probably not a problem. I've never tried the avocado oil so no comments on that. My lube wads a fairly soft almost a paste or salve consistency. What is important is the ability of my mix to go from solid/soft to liquid state on firing. The wax is just the carrier for the oil. The liquid coats the inside of the barrel before the bp fouling covers it. By blow tubing your adding hydration to keep you already soft bp fouling soft enough so that accuracy of the following shot is not affected. How well this all works? there are many contributing factors .If your loads having have been shelved for awhile you can lose some of the oil in your mix to the wads and paper patch, maybe even to the powder. Take care in how and long that you store them and where. Naturally the faster you shoot the hotter your barrel gets, If shooting by turn and you get a delay do some blow tubing immediately prior to your shot. How much you blow tube and when depends on the conditions and your skill to successfully determine your bp management needs. Luck to ya. Bobw

[mike herth]

Avocado oil and beeswax? Why? What ratio, by weight or volume?
I’ve never thought about cookie mix, just using what’s on hand. And lube mix degrading, adding to even more variables. Oh my...

[Kurt]

Gert,
I would suspect re heating the lube will degrade it if this is what you're doing.

I shoot dirty a lot just busting bowling pins at 200 yards and it tales a good lube to get this working.
When I make my lube wads I do it in a water bath and this adds moisture to the lube. I mix up a big batch in a old crock pot with about a quart of water and add the mixes and let it simmer for a while sturing it on and off to get it blended good. Turn off the heat and let it harden in the water. Lift out the cake and wipe off the jell on the bottom.

When I make the lube wads cut off 280 grams of my lube and place it in a 12" round straight wall cake pan with water and put it on a hot plate and let it simmer in the water and let it cool then lift the cake out and it will have a very even 3/16" disk to cut the wads. It will look like this when you pull it off the water.
I have emptied a 100 round box of ammo and shot them with just an occasional blow up the breach and not lost accuracy.
The hardness of the lube wad is also a factor how it stays in the bore and prelude the bore before the first shot fired with lube on the patch followed with a clean dry patch to wipe out the excess lube.
My lube is soft. I will put a lube wad between my finger and thumb and with slide pressure it like a room temperature butter.
Looking at the recovered wad stack there is almost no l;ube left between the two card wads it was sandwiched between. This means that the lube was left in the bore and keeping the fouling soft for thew next shot.
I use this soft lube year round and with proper wads it will not contaminated the powder when the rifle gets hot of in the ammo box.

IMG_3421.jpeg

[Kurt]

Here is a 200 yard 100 shots 2MOA group except for 5 shots forming .44-100 cases from .45 basic brass shooting dirty with out the use of a blow tube or wiping.
It can be done.

IMG_1242_zps765223af.jpeg

[Gussy]

Looks to me like you'd have done better if you hadn't lost your aiming spot

[Kurt]

You can call that a ragged hole

[martinibelgian]

Heat degradation is a potential cause, but that very same lube still works with GG bullets, where heating is much more frequent.
Still, it seems that pp is more demanding for lube than GG. I do now use a double boiler for heating lube, before it was a dish heater, so gradual even if direct heat.

[buffalocannon]

Mike, I melted pure natural beeswax from bees in a double boiler and added pure avocado oil until the wads were not hard like beeswax but somewhat squishy and greenish. I made a lot at once so I let the mixture harden and tested it until it had the right feel, and so I added avocado oil until it felt right. It took a while. I poured the mixture 3/16" (.1875") thick (per bobw's instructions-thanks!) into multiple metal cake pans my wife gave me until I had enough wad material for many years. They work great and give me a consistent lube star on the muzzle, even in high heat. I use a blow tube. When I load, I use a case to cut the wads from the pan. If I put the pan in the freezer for a while before, they cut easily and come off the pan easily. Why avocado oil? I believe it must have a high flash point. I have noticed when cooking that it is hard to get avocado oil to smoke while cooking eggs and sausage in the morning for instance. Olive oil and many of the others seem easy to start smoking under high heat, and I didn't want to use some exotic oil I can't eat. The wads make a quick, tasty snack during a match. I am no engineer and Dan T.(RIP) certainly wouldn't have made lube wads this way but it works for me. In five years or so when I have to make another batch, if I'm alive, I may try something else?

'

[MSalyards]

Actually Dan T did like Avocado oil due to it's high smoke point according to some old posts that I read.

[mike herth]

Thanks Buffalocannon. I’m going to give that lube a try.

[Yellowhouse]

Kurt, can you share your lube recipe?

[Kurt]

Sam.
That is a receipt like your Mother used to make your favorite meal, ultra top..top secret. A hand full of that, a pinch of this and stir the pot

Sam I use a mix of Ozokerite wax sap #1021 it has a melting point of around 170 degrees and a high carrier point.
Or I use Soy wax if I don't have the OZ wax. but it has a lower melting point. I have also used B Wax. All three will work.
Vaseline Petroleum Jelly. It has a melting point of around 170 degrees also. This is why I can make this lube very soft so most stays in the bore to keep fouling soft. Vaseline has been used for lube since it was invented in the late 1800 rds. I use it straight for muzzleloader patch lube and it lets me shoot the whole match without having to clean to seat the ball.
Peanut oil for blending the consistency.
Yes there is a lot of petroleum stuff in this mix that is supposed to make tar when you use black powder.
When I make a batch I put a duped hand full of wax and two jars of Vaseline. I think they are 13 oz jars.
And pour in a little peanut oil.
I put this in a old deep fryer and just about fill the pot with water and I let this simmer for a couple hours so it mixes well.
Let it cool and take a pinch of the set mix between my thumb and finger and squeeze it. if it's like room temperature butter it's done if it's to soft I add more wax and let it cook some more, but don't let the water cook away. When it like I want it I lift the cake out of the deep fryer and clean the jell off the bottom.
This lube will not oxidize or spoil stored in the open. I just wrap some cling wrap around it to keep it clean.
This I use for the PP bullets. It tends to be crumbly mixed stiffer and needs a little more binder to hold in a GG bullet.

[johnl]

Hey Kurt

I tried something similar to you. When I cut the cookie with the charged case I find I have to poke a hole in it afterwards with a dart because the trapped air pushes it out not allowing the second card and bullet to seat.