What about Schuetzen brand black powder?

[jackrabbit]

OE is not a bad product, just not as good as Swiss. No doubt many times it places middle of the pack ahead of a bunch of Swiss guys, but the odds are that same day the overall winner was using Swiss. OE has even won a match or two over the last few years, but the vast majority of the match winners are using Swiss.

As a match director who spends copious amounts of time preparing for matches and begging for prize donations and support, I will always support those that support us. There are a couple of ol' workhorses that can always be depended on to send hundreds of dollars worth of donations. At the head of that list is Swiss Powder. It is a premium powder that provides tons of match support. OE is a mediocre powder that provides very little match support.

In the end, I suppose it is like arguing Ford vs Chevy.

take care and thanks for the lively discussion, Cody

[Don McDowell]

You don't suppose OE doesn't do much match support because they read on the internet how match directors call it a mediocre product?
Both powders are good, and I maintain match winners have more to do with the shooter/spotter ability than it does with the powder. A good shooter is going to place well, even if they are shooting a borrowed rifle.

[desert deuce]

Looking back about 25 years at what the evolution in components primarily used by competitors in State and National level Black Powder Target Rifle Matches it is not possible to reasonably overlook how much in technique and available components have varied.

Early on there was a series of transitions such as is 2F Goex or Goex Cartridge best. Should we use Magnum Rifle Primers, what about Poly Wads and a whole litany of other variables such as Elephant Black Powder, Pyrodex, Cleanshot and now Olde Eynesford. Greasers vs Patched, blow tube vs wiping, wiping vs bore pigs, etc. And the evolution continues.

In fairness, we have to ask if current manufacture Schuetzen or OE have yet to receive a fair hearing on the ranges and score boards across America? I am guessing the answer would be no.

What better place to convene such a Grand Jury to consider the evidence, determine the facts in this case and render a finding than this Shiloh Forum?

Opinions are fine but facts are final.

I am not talking about review of history but current application to determine best practices and potential suitability based on results going forward.

[Don McDowell]

Schuetzen 2f can shoot very well according to a couple of our rifles 10 years or so ago.
I've ran the gamete with Swiss and OE, on occasion the Swiss would shoot a bit better than the OE but not enough to justify the expense. I've also had results with Swiss that are extremely bad..
Best bet if for a shooter looking for a powder get several pounds of every brand and several F sizes in each and spend the time doing load development. Get the one that shooter rifle and target can all agree on and go have a good time.

[Kurt]

A lot is overlooked at the bullet design and alloy temper. If you don't have a bullet that will stay stable because the ogive length and shape in relation the the length of the shank or a alloy that will obturate quick and still hold the ogive shape to hold the gas behind it quick and repeatedly you will get bad vertical no matter which powder you use.
I had a chat with the Hodgdon (Goex) rep at the Quigley one year about the OE powder and they said they developed it to match the Swiss for the sporting loads and I think if some hard Swiss users would find that it don't take the back seat to Swiss, especially the last lots they put out.
I go through a lot of powder every year Swiss included and my results using Swiss and OE the OE has outperformed Swiss.

[Don McDowell]

So the question does pop up
If the match winner is shooting Swiss and the first thru fourth place losers all shot Swiss were losers 1-4 all shooting mediocre powder ?

[Kurt]

I judge my powder and loads on where I finish at the Quigley or some of the other shoots I do by what I call hard holders are under my name at the finish. If I can stay in the top 10 to 20 I feel my OE powder is good.
I shot up a couple cases of Schuetzen 1, 2, and 3 FG and it shot ok but at the time the Swiss and Goex exp out done it.
Heck I even used 4FA in my .50 and .40-70 and got good results using it.

[jackrabbit]

A good shooter is going to place well, even if they are shooting a borrowed rifle.

Well, it was Swiss powder......

[Don McDowell]

[desert deuce]

The best midrange targets I have seen shot was with Goex Express.

Certain lots from the mid to late 1990's of Goex CTG & 2F were/are hard to beat. Others lots of that era not so much.

Right now the jury here is still out on the new Swiss 1.5 with the gold label.

[august west]

So is it fair to say that in general: Swiss is more consistent than OE, which is more consistent than Goex?

And shot-to-shot velocity consistency is the measure of a powder's quality?

[Dennis Armistead]

I think that Swiss 1 1/2 was the "go to" powder if you wanted a great consistent powder, which in turn led to more shooters getting better scores. I also think that every "lot" of powder made will be different from the next. When Goex started making OE, it showed to be a consistent powder also from lot to lot. I shoot both powders in my long range rifles and have found that both powders load almost the same, except I get more velocity from OE. I think both powders use the same type of graphite which puts them ahead of the other brands. I wish Swiss was cheaper though, but I understand it's imported and the cost will be higher. I shot Swiss in the 2019 season and am shooting OE this year and I'll see what the results are in the end. For what it's worth...both powders are great to shoot. And "Yes" Swiss supports our sport very well.
Dennis

[VectorMan]

Certain lots from the mid to late 1990's of Goex CTG & 2F were/are hard to beat. Others lots of that era not so much.

I have a case of Goex Cartridge powder I was planning on testing in a 45-100. Do you have any lot numbers of it that shot poorly and or very well?

Thanks
KA

[VectorMan]

The lot number I have. Probably the poorest they made.

F6FAA63B-86FB-4B77-8A30-19155FC7959C.jpeg

EBB5FEB2-99F4-4CB9-A59E-8AAC95FDB282.jpeg

[John Boy]

Do you have any lot numbers of it that shot poorly and or very well?

Very Good - Consistent Mix
Goex Cartridge – (0542) 07MY04B - May 2004
20 mesh – 98.46% retained
30 mesh – 01.54% retained
Through – Trace

No So Good - Mix all Screwed Up
Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B - Oct 2007
12 mesh – 0.62% retained
14 mesh – 0.03% retained
20 mesh – 97.54% retained
30 mesh – 01.70% retained
Through – 0.11%
Sieve out the 12 and 14 mesh ... and it will be better with the 0.11%, 40 plus mesh included