Bullet casting frustration

[Kurt]

If you stop and think about vented sprue plates and ladle spigots what good does that do? when you pour the lead through the plate the hole is completely covered with the pour and the air cant get past the filled hole.
Start your pour slow with the mould on it's side and slowly rotate the mould up this gives the vent lines on the blocks to do their job leading the air out.
If you cast and notice a gray blemish on one side of the bullet your most likely holding the mould up (plate up flat) this causes the gray blemish on one side of the bullet from the fast pour trapping the air. This is more noticeable if you're using a bottom pour pot without a ladle.

[AzTBH]

Bruce M. Wrote: “… with regards venting air from moulds, i have found that adjusting the sprue plate screw correctly is a big help. you need to do it when the mould is hot to get it right.”

Bruce - I agree with your statement “…adjusting the spruce plate screw is a big help" as I have noticed a difference in casting results depending on “tightness” of the Sprue Plate. That being said, have difficulty in getting repeatable spruce plate tightening from one casting session to another, since I remove the spruce plate for cleaning after each casting session. I also adjust the plate on a cold mould, however I will dry adjusting on a hot mould. I am interested in what you consider an ideal tightest of the spruce plate. I have read several recommendations from the plate swings open, by gravity, to a little tight (whatever that means) to pretty tight. Thanks for any insight you can provide in the technique that works for you.

Good Shooting,
Ross

[bruce m]

ross,
it is very fiddly to get the sprue plate tension right and is a bit of a try it and see thing.
unlike many, i smoke my moulds but with a gas cigarette lighter rather than a match or candle.
this is because the fuel in matches and candles is wax, ant the smoke from burning it contains wax.
this in a mould is not much better than oil.
i also smoke the top of the mould and under the sprue plate.
i rarely have to remove the sprue plate for cleaning, and even then it might be stuff around the hole to clean which does not require removal.
thus the investment in time of adjusting is well spent.
if the plate is too loose, you will get a little flange of lead around the bullet base, as well as a raised bit of lead where the sprue hole is.
if it is too tight the plate will have too much friction.
somewhere in between it will come right.
i have had moulds where the sprue plate was not flat, and the top of the mould has been hollow.
in both cases a thin lead flange was on the bullets.
both items were flattened with fine abrasive paper on a piece of glass working the item in a figure 8 pattern.
the top of the mould and the plate then meet perfectly.
brooks, kal,buffalo arms, and paul jones moulds have never required this procedure.
i have found that the more stuff that goes back into the pot during casting, the more dross forms faster.
this is an oxice of the alloy being used, or a lead oxide i am not sure which.
fluxing re dissolves it, but i worry that if it has a tendancy to be more lead than tin, the alloy is getting softer.
also, fluxing during casting removes a consistent mould temperature.
i do not throw my sprues back in during casting, but remelt them at the next fluxing.
what worries me with vented sprues is that all the alloy that issues forth is creating oxide on the alloy very fast.
there is an atrt to getting a big sprue puddle on the plate without it running over.
many now seem to cast at lower temps, bu i still go for 800 degrees according to my thermometer.
i find that this possibly keeps the alloy in the mould molten a little longer, and the big sprue puddle gives plenty to suck into the mould without an air hole.
prior to creating the puddle, i hold the ladle on the mould upright for about a count of 5, in the hope that some head pressure will encourage fillout.
i got onto the slow rotation of the mould that kurt describes from his writings.
it will tend to vent air, and other ways encourage a goo mould fill.
like everything casting, experimenting with time and technique pays off.
bruce.

[august west]

with regards venting air from moulds, i have found that adjusting the sprue plate screw correctly is a big help.
you need to do it when the mould is hot to get it right.
bruce.

What is your criteria for a well adjusted hot sprue plate? How do you know when you're "there"?

[J.B.]

Sprue plate tension is yet another variable...so its not a 'one size fits all' formula. I do like my moulds to have that 'wafer thin' spring washer on the pivot screw ..so you could possibly add another of those to increase tension on the plate if you feel thats the issue and didn't want to screw the plate down further. Generally a slightly loose 'cold' plate will become a snugger 'hot' plate once the mould is up to temperature. The other thing I've found to be critical...other than your pour method... is the heat of the plate. Being of a different material they heat up at different rates. My .. and I emphasise 'my' ... rule of thumb is tip, pour, roll and hold for a count of 7-9 and then remove the ladle. If the sprue 'greys' up in less than another count of 7 then the plate is too cold and the base band especially ..is usually not as sharp as it should be. The thicker plates that most of the custom makers now supply as standard take a little longer to warm up but hold their temperature better and give a better nozzle recess for the ladle. I've three ladles...and the angles are slightly different...with some suiting one mould... while another suits something else. If the sprue plate is too snug.. it give me fits trying to pour a good bullet. I dont pretend to know the science of it... its just how it works for me.

J.B.

[Tomklinger]

Gentlemen,
I’m surprised I don’t hear of people using nose pour molds. Most of my molds are nose pour. They always make perfect, flat, bullet bases, you don’t have to worry about the perfect plate tension, and if there is a micro air bubble, it tends to be in the center of the bullet up by the nose. They work great for paper patch as well. I shoot hollow base p.p. Bullets in an original #7 Ballard.one needs a nose pour to make hollow base bullets.
Tom K

[AzTBH]

Bruce

Thank you for the detailed and informative response on your sprue plate adjustment technique. I will try adjusting the plate when the mould is hot, at my next casting session. I will also avoid removing the plate, at every cleaning, once the ideal tightness is achieved.

Good Shooting,
Ross

[Lumpy Grits]

I use a carpenter pencil on the top of the mould and the underside of the sprue plate.
My sprue plate is adjusted to just swing freely when at casting temp.
I also slightly opened up the pour hole in my ladle.
Gary

[bruce m]

august,
the criteria is that bullets are well filled out and have flat bases with no pimple where the sprue hole is.
j.b. summed it up in that you have to keep trying until you get it right.
neither too loose nor too tight.
base variations seem to be one of the areas that causes weight inconsistency.
running the alloy at 800 and having a hot enough mould and sprue plate keeps things molten just that little bit longer, allowing a bit more time for fillout by sucking in from the sprue puddle.
of course you have to wait a little longer to cut the sprue, but the time id well spent
cutting the sprue is a subject in itself.
it is important to have a sharp edge at the bottom of the sprue plate.
the best way to achieve this is the same as flattening a bent plate, with fine abrasive paper on a piece of glass in a figure 8 motion.
i possibly allow my sprues to solidify a little more than some, as i need to hit the plate with my hammer handle rather than pushing it with my hand.
here a good sharp cutting edge makes it easier, as well as minimizing potential for a lead smear on the plate.
i think quality modern moulds cast very good bases when used properly, negating the need for nose pour.
this allows for more choice of nose shapes when chasing lower drag for long range shooting.
patching without a tail negates the need for a hollow base, and offers potentially better wad release.
correct sized bullets also negate the need for a hollow base.
good sized sprue puddles maintain a good plate temperature, and this temp can actually be controlled by sprue puddle size albeit with difficulty.
just reread j.b.'s post and it really sums it up.
bruce.

[Tomklinger]

Bruce m
I like to shoot original rifles with original style ammo. I’ve been in this game since the early 80’s shooting paper patch the entire time. Since it Is obvious that you know nothing of how I load ammo, I’ll educate you. For example...My hollow base bullet for my 44/100 Ballard everlasting round is exactly the correct patched diameter for the bore. It’s a 530gr ,shallow hollow base round (original style for that rifle),that I patch to the Hyde method, (no tail). Kal tools made the custom mold so well you would never know that it’s a nose pour unless you studied the round.I use no poly wads, only the type of material they had in the 1870’s. I drop tube 95gr of 1f Swiss, 1 playing card wad and 2 .080 hard card wads on top with no compression. The bullet is seated .100 into the case. They’re are several people on this forum that can verify how well that original Ballard #7 long range rifle shoots! I do all of my practicing at 700yds on my range with this rifle. It’s very accurate and very well tuned. This is just my nitch in our sport, yes I shoot base pour also, but I get more consistent accuracy with nose pour molds. Just because I don’t do things the way you “experts” say doesn’t make my way wrong.
Tom Klinger
Oh by the way...I bottom pour also and my bullets look as good or better than the ones I’ve seen on this forum

[MAH]

#7 Ballard,

One fine shooting rifle. Less than a minute of an angle at 700 yards. Witnessed that every time we go play. If a shot goes out of the group it is because I missed a wind call. Tom practices the way the odg shot. Right down to the wiping method! The last few months wad stack has been the focus, seeing what the gun enjoyed putting down range. Amazing how changing the order and or the style of the over powder wad can make a rifle shoot. Stupid things we have both tried and found out how good or bad it works. Been laughed at or someone's panties had gotten in a wad. Remember Ole Tom, only shoots original rifles! Makes them sing.

MAH

[bruce m]

tom,
first of all i don't claim to be an expert.
i have nothing against hollow base bullets or nose pour moulds.
in fact odg methods interest me greatly.
i meant no offence to you, and apologize if any was taken.
all i meant was you do not need a hollow base, and should have made that point clearer.
bruce.

[Tomklinger]

Bruce m
I’ve found several “right” ways to do things in our sport. Keeping an open mind, and listening to others, and gaining experience through trial and error is a great way to learn. I’m not advocating that nose pour molds are the best, they just shoot best and produce the best bullets in my experience. Flat clean bases are key to good accuracy! That is common knowledge. For example, If the spruce plate hole is not exactly centered in the base of a base pour bullet, it causes a balance problem noticeable at long ranges. Nose pour bullets don’t have that issue, plus as you cast, you have the weight of the molten lead bearing down on the base, aiding in filling out the base. Some people say a bullet with a very small flat spot on the nose allows the bullet stay stable longer. That may be why many top high power shooters use hollow point bullets.Ten years ago, bullet shape with nose pour molds may have been limited, how ever that’s not the case any more. I have elliptical, money bullets,Creedmoor style and others that are all nose pour. Again, through my experience this is what works for me, it may or may not work for others.
Experimenting is the best way to make gains....
Tom Klinger

[august west]

Tom, others -

I've read about some original bullets being tapered. Was regular boxed sporting ammunition loaded with straight slugs? Were tapered bullets largely a target range thing? I'm assuming the commonly available nose-pour sprue snip moulds sold by Sharps were probably for straight/parallell sided bullets. Was there an adjustable nose pour mould back in the day? Looking at original cartridge boxes, it seems just as common to list bullets by length as it does by grain weight making me think that shooters (obviously) liked different length bullets for different ranges/uses, but also maybe that there were adjustable bullet moulds.

I look forward to the Marcot book that will hopefully include loading tools.

[bruce m]

august,
for paper patch target loads, parallell shanks have a lot to offer.
if the patched bullet is a good sliding fit into the bore diameter of the rifling, bullet alignment with the axis of the bore is the best you can get.
this is one of the reasons to avoid overlap of the ends of the patch.
this is equally true of fixed ammo 1/10" in the case and breech seating.
this is also why it is better not to size cases for serious accuracy, as the unsized case allows for better bullet alignment, unless your ammo has zero runout.
tapered bullets might well have suited shooting dirty more so than long range, as you could seat the bullet back in the case far enough for the bullet to clear fouling.
this more suited to hunting.
in the day, hunters might have used cast pp bullets more than long range target shooters.
certainly the top guys hammer swaged either cast alloy blanks or cast bullets for absolute uniformity.
factories would most likely have supplied swaged bullets.
with regards bullet lengths, this could have been to relate the bullet to barrel twist rates.
bruce.