Barrel Leading Question

[bruce m]

Before I got into Dual Diameter bullets, For my 40-72/gg chamber , I had a straight
patch to bore PP bullet cut. I Lightly taper crimped the fire formed cases Without
The PPed bullet installed--- just enough to have a snug slip fit to finger seat the bullets..
Definitely Not wanting to damage the paper on the bullets. This worked well, with good accuracy.
But, I like not having to do anything to my fire formed cases other than "verify" they case mouths
are true and round with a 2 step expanding plug.
beltfed/arnie

what he says

[mdeland]

I think if you get looking at a good number of different kinds of recovered bullets you'll get over the notion that bullet nose's are anything other than a minor contributor to bore leading.

[mdeland]

I'm told short patching will also lead a bore but have not experimented with this to see for myself. It makes sense that if bare lead with no patch cover or lube rides the bore there is a good chance of some being transferred to the barrel interior from friction. This is of course a different scenario than a lubed grease groove bullet used in say a pre- lubed barrel.

[bruce m]

I think if you get looking at a good number of different kinds of recovered bullets you'll get over the notion that bullet nose's are anything other than a minor contributor to bore leading.

that is right.
the paul jones so called creedmoor design is a major offender at this even cast quite hard.
you can see serious rifling marks on the nose.
there is no such thing as a bore riding nose in black powder, unless you maybe use lyman no2 or such that is not suited to the job in so many other ways.
bruce.

[bruce m]

I'm told short patching will also lead a bore but have not experimented with this to see for myself. It makes sense that if bare lead with no patch cover or lube rides the bore there is a good chance of some being transferred to the barrel interior from friction. This is of course a different scenario than a lubed grease groove bullet used in say a pre- lubed barrel.

while some suscribe to short patching, my own experience is to start patching long and go shorter in increments.
studying the confetti will tell you the correct patch length, as the paper will start cutting to the front.
bruce.

[Tuscarora]

Thank you everyone! I'm processing here. This BPCR stuff is a new learning curve for sure. I'm excited to get this ball rolling!

Okay, the DDPP bullets I looked up. Are these still wrapped/rolled the same as a straight side?

What are you using for wiping rods? I obviously haven't competed in any BPCR events yet. Is wiping every shot or every few the norm with PP bullets? Can a grease cookie be used with either?

For a greaser mold, what are some recommendations?

[mdeland]

I like both the Paul Jones 510 and 530 grain Creedmoor GG bullets for match work. My best 45-70 load using the bigger bullet is with Mathews Lube , CCI BR primers and 74 grans of Swiss 1.5.

[august west]

Delrin rods are what most people use. It's a flexible plastic that won't scratch the bore. Both simple blank rods as well as pre-made drilled and tapped rods are available from a variety of sources.

Wiping between shots is a religious question, but the answer is always, never, and sometimes.

[Geologist]

I did not catch the alloy you are using, but using retail bullets -- your problem is alloy, and once leading starts it grows on itself and keeps going until you get rid of it 100%.

[mdeland]

The best lead remover I have ever used and still have the best success with is Gunzilla. It will remove all traces with a bronze brush and tight patch.

[desert deuce]

Barrel leading

Living and shooting BPCRifles in Southern Arizona offers the opportunity to observe barrel leading under match conditions on occasion which obviously is a different situation than match shooting in Southern Canada or the Northern U.S.

Here, once observed the issue becomes two fold, 1-does if adversely affect accuracy, & if so, 2-what causes the leading

Speaking solely to the use of grease groove bullets & Black Powder it seems fairly obvious that environmental conditions are a major factor. If the leading does not adversely affect accuracy after sighters and record shots what difference does it make in score ? None.

A Black Powder Cartridge Rifle is not a surgical instrument. It is more like Government efficiency in comparison, measure with a micrometer, mark the cut line with a piece of chalk and make the cut with an axe.

If the leading does adversely affect accuracy then you have a problem and then it becomes necessary to mitigate and hopefully eliminate the cause of the leading.

Without going into great detail, I have noticed that hard fouling in the bore usually preceds accuracy diminishing barrel leading. Therefore controlling barrel fouling becomes the issue in preventing accuracy destroying leading. There are more solutions for that problem than recipes for Texas Chili. Your rifle will tell you which one suits it the best.

If you are getting accuracy diminishing leading without hard fouling then you may have a problem with the interior finish of your barrel and that is an entirely different situation ?

[Kurt]

The major cause of lead in the bore is the tin or antimony in the alloy. (SOLDER)
I been a plumber long enough to know if you use straight lead and heat a copper or iron and try to make the lead stick you will have a very large puddle on the ground and not on what you're tying to make it stick to.

Casting bullets to hot and frosting shows up on the surface, well that is the tin or tin/antimony your using and it will smear you're bore if you're using greasers. If you ever shot a smoothie (smooth bore muzzle loader) and used a mini ball that is usually pure lead you will see the lack of lead in the bore when you clean it if you fill the cavity and rings with tallow or lard.

[mdeland]

Yup, I agree, many years ago when Raymond Hanson lived here in AK and I shot regularly with him, told me to spend some money and get pure lead without any antimony in it and my barrel leading would stop. I tried it and sure enough my barrel leading disappeared and accuracy went up but as I had a huge supply of antimony lead and am to cheap not to use it, I have to deal with lead in the bore.
I miss shooting with both the Hanson's and their neat personalities, Good folks!

[desert deuce]

If it is not hard fouling causing the leading (and it adversely affects accuracy) you have another problem besides hard fouling.
It is your rifle and your load and it then becomes your task to run down the problem whether the cause is obvious or not.

[bpcr shooter]

Indeed, you could shoot a 'patch to bore" bullet in your Shiloh GG chamber 45-2.1 as Don suggests
Of course you would need to taper crimp slightly so as to hold the bullet which will patch up to about 0.450 " or so

OTOH, you could go to a Dual Diameter bullet which would have a "Patch to Fire Formed case neck I.D." Base band
and a 'main body" that is "patch to bore ride diameter" to center up on the lands.
Now you can avoid the taper crimping of the brass and simply finger seat the bullets snugly in the fire formed cases.

Examples of two 45 cal Dual Diameter PP bullets in Buffalo Arms catalog for you to look at:
Jim# 453545E and Jim#455545E These bullets "saved" a couple guys after they had less than satisfying results with straight
"patch to bore" bullets

beltfed/arnie

OP- yes you will wipe every time with DDPP bullets, yes they are wrapped the same way (the paper will stretch a little). grease cookie can be used but those are usually reserved for hunting situations where toting a rod and patches is a bit cumbersome. wiping solution....there are a few different types and mixes, I use 10-1 water/water soluble cutting oil (napa, fastnall, etc has it)

After struggling to find a greaser that shot and didn't lead my rifle, I made the switch to PP. A VERY nice fella (Jim K) came to my rescue and I now have a bullet that will literally stack bullets if I do my part. Best part of it all NO leading......EVER. I now have multiple bullets that are PP designed by Arnie and couldn't be happier!! The dual diameter bullets are fantastic!!


Ohh, by the way Arnie we got that 40-82Sil shooting...5 shots, all touching @ 100yd. Time to back up and see what she does!!!