What Is A Clean Barrel?

[Tuscarora]

I am new to these rifles and noticing a different learning curve for sure. I come from a PRS and 22 match shooting background and 35ish years of reloading.

When cleaning barrels of my PRS rifles, given the cartridge, it is after around 300-400 rounds downrange. I haven't removed copper fouling now in years. As for the 22's, those match rifles have not seen a cleaning rod since bore snakes were introduced and I will pull a dry one through a few times at the end of every match, or about 80-100 rounds.

I am now shooting a 74 Shiloh, 45-70. I have been working up loads for greasers and PPB's. I have been successful in working up competitive loads I believe for both now.

What I am discovering is that in its lifetime my barrel will know my cleaning rod far better than any bullet!

What I am also discovering is that there is a difference in clean depending on what is being used. For cleaning after shooting greasers I have been using either Shiloh's water based BP cleaner, or MPro-7. For wiping and cleaning when shooting PPB's I use MPro-7. When I clean, I clean to white patches.

Recently I discovered that after cleaning at the range I had left my oil elsewhere for running an oily patch down the barrel post cleaning with the MPro-7. I had some Hoppe's in another kit in the truck, pushed a wetted patch through the barrel, and went home. Two days later when back at the range a clean patch was run through to dry the barrel and I got a nicely fouled patch out the other end! What I am guessing after some experimentation is that I am dealing with a carbon ring that builds up through the course of shooting and wiping that never fully comes clean with a water based cleaner or MPro-7. I see this using MPro-7 on my high power rifles as well. I can use it to clean down to what would seem white patch clean, but a patch of Hoppes left overnight tells a different tale!

So! Gentlemen, what is clean in your BP competition rifles?

And also, what is the lifespan of your barrels? Are your barrels being worn from your cleaning rods or from actual rounds fired?

Thanks!

[powderburnt]

Check this out. http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt ... =5&t=25251 As for putting away clean, I use WD40 Rust Inhibiter on a patch through the bore. For long term, I'm more liberal with it. I never leave the range without running some down the bore and I never fire without removing it with a tight patch of MPro-7. I use Kroil for a stubborn bore. A patch will never come out white but it will help remove anything in the bore after you get the BP fouling out. Loose wet patch then tight dry patch.

Welcome to the madness,
HG

[Coltsmoke]

What I have found in the last couple of months. I have left the matches with what I thought was a clean barrel, a barrel that was producing clean white patches when I was done. I found if I took that " clean " barrel and let it set for 24 hrs. with GM Top engine and injector cleaner I got more fouling or what I think is carbon, out of the barrel. Let it soak for 24 hrs. then brush it several times with a nylon brush then wipe that out with a patch with lacquer thinner. I now do it 2 days in a row just to make sure it is all out. You may think your barrel is clean, but try this and then you will know for sure.

[beltfed]

Coltsmoke,
Just curious,
What you you expect to dissolve out of the bore with Lacquer thinner?
beltfed/arnie

[bpcr shooter]

water oil mix same as whet I use to wipe with while shooting. couple patches of that and then a few dry, followed by a oil patch, comes out nice and clean.
In BP, if its not coming out with water its usually some form of metal (lead) specially if your shooting PP . cant say Ive ever seen a a carbon ring shooting BP.

If your shooting greaser's, the metal has pores and the grease works its way into those, maybe what your seeing is that??

[Tuscarora]

Powderburnt,
Already using the BACO wipers. I like em.

Been a fan of Kroil for years. I've even used it for it's intended purpose a few times!

Guys, don't forget the additional questions at the end of that post. Do BPCR barrels wear out from rods or shooting?

[SSShooter]

Plastic or brass or carbon fiber rod and the barrel should essentially last forever. Lubed soft lead against hard steel and relatively low heat from BP doesn't create much wear. Many 10's of thousands of rounds. That's with GG bullets. Someone who has been shooting PP will have to tell us about same.

[Kurt]

I can show you what a bore will look like from new to when I lost count around 20 K rounds shot through it. This is my .50-2.5 Shiloh and it has had mostly shot GG bullets because it just never shot as well using a PP bullet. These pictures I took using a Hawkey bore scope that has 24X magnification and they are not as good as some of the new digital scopes can now produce.
The first photo was when it was new and you can see the reamer marks but they are pretty shallow after the button was pulled through. I don't know just how deep that washboard is.
The second photo is just about when I lost count of rounds through the rifle by marking the primer bricks that I only use in this rifle. Lost count when several years ago with a primer shortage and I had to use the .50 primers for other rifles.
The Third photo is the chamber end and this rifle has a 45 degree chamber transition into the throat and you can see the erosion at the end of the case most likely being short for the chamber. Also you can see a lead ring that did not let loose when I cleaned it.
My other rifles I shoot nothing but PP bullets and the reamer marked vanished sooner then this rifle using GG bullets. But they look just as smooth as this bore does. The land edges are still as sharp as new. That thin groove you see next to the land was there from new. I think a chip might have been pulled through or the button had a nick. But this rifle wad a good shooter and a better shooter now with I would guess 24K plus rounds through it.
You will most likely wear your rifle out sooner with importer cleaning then you will shooting it .)

IMG_1417.jpeg

bore 2.jpeg

bore 1.jpeg

[Coltsmoke]

I use Lacquer Thinner to remove any oil or cleaners out of the bore after they have done their job, not to dissolve anything in the bore. It works like Brake Cleaner or Carb. cleaner. I think the Top Engine cleaner is dissolving carbon that is not removed from the corners of the lands and grooves. I'm shooting PP loads and have never found a speck of lead in my barrel, if you're shooting PP and finding lead, you are shooting a patch that is too short. It is not normal to find lead in a barrel that is shooting PP loads. I take extra pains to clean my barrel when the match is over, and the last white patch will be as clean as a new patch when I'm done. Soak it 24 hrs. in Top Engine Cleaner and more comes out on the patch, I assure you it is not from lead deposits. Give it a try, or not, it's your barrel do what you want.

[Tuscarora]

Kurt,
Thanks for that extra effort in uploading photos. Awesome!

Coltsmoke,
Thanks for the followup to Arnie's question. While I have been guessing a carbon ring buildup, which I have seen in high-power rifles, perhaps it is carbon holding tight in the corners of the lands and grooves. Running patches from both ends of the barrel, the remaining carbon that I am finding, and here also not lead, is in the first 8-10"s of barrel.

Thanks all!

[Coltsmoke]

If your shooting greaser's, the metal has pores and the grease works its way into those, maybe what your seeing is that??
[/quote]

The quote above takes me back to barrel break-in procedures, if you have pores in the metal of the barrel that will hold grease it is also going to hold BP fouling. In time the lead bullets will eventually seal those pores off with the black powder fouling in them that will rust it's way back out of there a couple of years later. Doing a barrel break-in with copper plated bullets and regular powder cleaning after each shot, the powder out first then remove the copper is to seal the pores in the metal without the black powder fouling in the pores. I know a lot of the barrel makers said this is not necessary no need to do it. I know there are a lot of shooters on here that will say this is BS. To me it is just another theory it could be BS, but a box of copper bullets is not that much money. According to the experts this would need to be done before you use any black powder loads. I'm not the expert, I know we have beat this dead horse again, just giving shooters something to think about. I don't see any pitting in Kurt's barrel maybe it is BS about pores in the metal doing anything.

[Coltsmoke]

Just another thought, seems to me a button rifled barrel would have the pores sealed anyway compared to cut rifling.

[beltfed]

ON a new barrel, SAVE breakin bullets:
I use ONONDAGUA'S process to polish the bore before I ever take a shot:
Otis Bore Snake of appropriate caliber
Turtle Wax Chrome polish
Draw the bore snake thru the barrel from breech end, leaving the
thicker "business end" exposed.
soak a teaspoon full or so of the chrome polish into the business end.
Draw the bore snake thru the barrel 10 times.
Add another teaspoon of chrome polish and
Draw thru another 10 times.
REPEAT until you have "100" draw thru's.
Slicks up the barrel which will help reduce fouling buildup, etc.
beltfed/arnie

[Kurt]

C-smoke,
I do have or had a barrel that had pits but it was not from black powder fouling it happen after cleaning.
What you see here is what happens when you don't run enough dry patches through to dry the water out good enough before oiling the bore. The oil traps the moisture and this is the results.
If I didn't shoot this rifle to often those pits might have gone deeper for a permanent damage. This mess cleaned up very will just running 600 grid Clover lapping compound on a cotton patch through 5 times a tight jag.

IMG_3372.jpeg

IMG_3373.jpeg

[beltfed]

Kurt,
After BP, I am cleaning the rifle with Windex with Vinegar-several patches.
THEN, I run a dry patch thru
THEN , I run a 99% Rubbing Alcohol patch thru to remove any remaining moisture in the bore
( I get the 99% Rubbing Alcohol from the " Animal/Vet" department of Fleet farm )
Then an Oil patch to finish.
Olive or Canola Oil if I am going to shoot the rifle again soon,
Otherwise RIG gun grease patch for longer term storage. And wipe all metal surfaces with the RIG patch.
beltfed/arnie