Paper Patch Shredding

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PhilRich
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Paper Patch Shredding

Post by PhilRich »

Is it important for the patch to completely shred?

I've had leading problems shooting a .442 dia bullet patched with the BACO paper that was available previously. I don't see any on their website now. I tried varying the powder charge from 75 down to 65 grains, changing the bullet from 16-1 to 30-1 and getting leading for all. This is for a 45-70. The patched bullet diameter is about .4495, bore diameter slugged to .450.

I picked up tracing paper from the local Office Depot that results in a slightly larger diameter bullet. This eliminated leading using the 30-1 alloy. However, the paper isn't being fully shredded. There is a approx 1 inch long piece of paper a few feet in front of the bench after each shot. That piece is scored and partially cut through but not shredded.

I've been given the impression that the paper should be fully shredded and I should try something else. I have no idea what this paper is made of. Accuracy is good at 100 yds, Our max range is 200, I haven't shot that distance as this is still in the experimental stage.

My thinking is, if it shoot accurate and no leading, so what if the paper isn't completely shredding?
beltfed
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by beltfed »

Philrich
Yes, So What. It is noted you said the pieces of paper appear every shot.
that says you are not having paper stay on the bullet. Good.
And you are getting good accuracy.
The larger pieces of paper are likely the inner layer. I get the same thing re. paper fragments of all sizes
and shoot minute of angle, sometimes better.
beltfed/arnie
martinibelgian
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by martinibelgian »

As Arnie said, the intention is accuracy - not shredding paper. If the accuracy is there, you won't have any issues with your patches, and you don't care whether you're getting confetti or the paper coming off uncut, coloured green, whatever. The fact it is coming off is the most important.
MikeT
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by MikeT »

PhilRich,

For target shooting at longer ranges, you will be better serviced with a tighter fit to bore than your 0.4495 patched bullet.
I shoot a 0.4503 diameter patched bullet in a 0.450 bore. I want to know [by feel] when the paper enters the rifling. It does not need to be a firm push into the bore, just enough resistance so you can feel it slide into the bore.

And also, I am not shredding the inner layer of paper out of my 45-70 or 45-100.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Distant Thunder »

MikeT has it right.

I size my bullets after patching to about .0004" over the bore size in my .45-70. I quit looking at my fired patches years ago, I just look at the target and I smile. Your score is not determined by the size of your confetti.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
Coltsmoke
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Coltsmoke »

PhilRich, I purposely have my bullets patched just like yours, half thousands under bore. You will see PP shooters on the line knocking bullets back out of the chamber because they tore the paper when inserting the round. Why does this happen, the bullet is over sized to the bore and all it takes is a very small piece of fouling to cause a problem. The over sized bullet leaves no room for error. I've done it both ways with great results on the target. I'll take the half thousands under bore any day over the over sized bullet. Accuracy is the same, you don't give up anything with the under bore bullet, but you will encounter less problems with torn paper going in. Feeling the resistance to a bullet sliding in the chamber will tell you if you tore the patch on your oversized bullet. If the patch wrinkles up or tears the resistance will increase. I've got one paper that sizes the bullet .001 over bore shoots great but you better make sure there is no fouling in the bore right in front of the chamber. I've took that bullet and run it thru a .400 sizer for a perfect fit, shot great, I've used the smaller paper that puts it a half thousand under bore, shot great. You need to find something else to worry about.

Now when everybody gets done chewing on that, try this. I push one damp patch down the bore, that's all. Not 2 wet, then one dry, chamber mop and so on, and so on, got to have your mouth open and one eye closed. :lol: I guess all that is done because the bore right in front of the chamber has to be perfectly clean so you can load the oversized bullet, I have never had to do all of that. The one patch procedure has shot under 1 minute with no flyers at all, no patch problems. I have been using my version of bore pigs for years up until about a month ago, never have shot with a dry barrel for PP loads. I changed to the one patch and got better accuracy, less work, less time and less money for patches. Tried the BA felts on a nylon brush followed by a patch, the one damp patch has produced better accuracy and less work, and the barrel is left damp. Regardless of what has been preached here for years and cast in stone to be the only way possible, experiment for yourself, just because Ole Joe Blow said you must do this, test it for yourself.
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Coltsmoke
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Coltsmoke »

Stick with 16-1 alloy, if you are getting lead in the bore your patches are too short. Stand two bullets up side by side touching, that will show you where to start your patch on the bullet. Put it 1/16th above that and you will be good to go, leading should stop. Don't worry about the paper not being shredded. Stop shooting at 100 yds. and shoot at 200 yds.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
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PhilRich
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by PhilRich »

Thank you for the advise, it is very encouraging! I will continue to work on load development trying the 16-1 alloy again and wiping technique. I'm new to paper patching, the patches are looking better, more consistent. They are shooting better than the greaser I've been using. I would also like to develop a pp load that doesn't require wiping that would require using a grease cookie. We have 20 shot matches from cross sticks, buffalo hunter style at 100 and 200 yds. The wiping procedure requires taking the rifle off the sticks and then getting reset, where blow tubing is a smoother procedure. The idea of using only one damp patch might work out OK.

Phil
Coltsmoke
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Coltsmoke »

Leave the rifle barrel in the sticks and learn to push patches without taking it out of the sticks. I don't think you are going to shoot PP without wiping with patches.
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
semtav
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by semtav »

Coltsmoke wrote: Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:20 am . Regardless of what has been preached here for years and cast in stone to be the only way possible, experiment for yourself, just because Ole Joe Blow said you must do this, test it for yourself.
As long as you don't confuse this with unsafe practices, its probably the best advice out there.
Lots of great advice on here, but you still have to figure out what works best for you.

If you find a way to shoot BP PP without wiping, let us know.
You may have some luck with grease cookies
Only way I know is by Duplexing, But:
a: You have to be shooting at venues that allow it,
b: You have to have thick enough skin to withstand the chastizing if you admit to it on this forum.
Ray Newman
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Ray Newman »

"Lots of great advice on here, but you still have to figure out what works best for you."
--Semtav

BINGO! Semtav is on to it!
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martinibelgian
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by martinibelgian »

I can attest to it, PP and blowtubing will work indeed with a (thick) grease cookie. I use it all the time when shooting military rifles in competition, no blowtubing allowed there, so... OTOH, accuracy expectations are less than with match rifles. Mind you, there is also another difference between military rifle and match rifle, and that is throat configuration: The military rifles of the day have rather oversize throats with a very gentle taper at the end of the case, and no 45 degree case transition. It does help with fouling management...
Now, in my, case, I'm using quite large cases (577-450, no.2 Musket) which do have the capacity for holding both a thick grease cookie and a full powder charge. A 45-70 would be a bit capacity-challenged shooting this way.
bobw
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by bobw »

Amazing, simply amazing a whole thread by a bunch of very accomplished shooters all using paper patched bullets. Not 1 disparaging word at all. I guess old dogs can learn new tricks , can't teach them any but they learn their own. bobw
bobw
Kurt
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Kurt »

If the paper shreds completely or just the outer layer and cuts the inner wrap is really no issue for accuracy that I can see.
When the paper shred both layers to me is a sign that the paper is getting to thin and the bare bullet is starting to make contact with the land edges and after many rounds that lead will start to smear the flats also. I use paper that is thicker by at least one thousand deeper than the groove depth.
I used to patch tight, one thousand over bore and I had vertical problem show up using a light compressed load under .100" compression that I didn't see using the old Dupont or Goex that I compressed past .300" this made me think that the tight bullet was changing the compression forcing the round into the throat. Now I mostly use the OE and slightly starting to use Swiss where the compression is slight and I keep the patched diameter a 1/2 to one thousand under bore for my match loads or running ladder loads with new lots of powder to get the best accuracy.
Now for shooting without fouling control is a different animal. I have bullets patched to groove depth and ogive shaped bullets that let me patch to under bore diameter and they will let me shoot a 100 round ammo box empty with just an octagonal blow down the breach.
One just has to get out and shoot these different ways of patching to see what will work and what does not.
The 45º chamber end can be a problem shooting a PP bullet , I see that looking at recovered snow bank bullets where either the lead or paper build up between the case mouth and the transition into the throat. I seen some very bad designs on the bullet shanks, not all but some.
The paper not separating from the bullet.
I have seen paper stuck on the target backer at 200 yards but it's was not because the paper was to thick it came from wet patching in some cases and a pore wad stack under the lube wad letting the lube get under the patch. I found this on bullets I recovered from snow, they had lube under the the paper on the base.
I breach seat quite often using patched bullets groove diameter or 2-3 thousands over groove diameter and I have pushed them back out just to see if the patch gets pushed back in chambers with a 45º degree chamber end and I have never found one that shows signs of patches getting pushed back, but I have seen this going on loading the round when the sharp chamber mouth catches the patch when getting careless loading the round.
All of my rifles now have the original funnel throats from 4º to 5º and I don't have problems using that type of throat like I did one with a 45º.
The long funnel I call a lead bullet throat. GG or PP :)
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Don McDowell
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Re: Paper Patch Shredding

Post by Don McDowell »

Lots of different combinations will give decent accuracy out to 300 yards or so which is fine for a lot of shooting, ie hunting.busting rocks etc.
But when the distances get long and hits in the x and 10 ring determines the winner then a bit more attention to bullet diameter, hardness and length and paper thickness, combined with fouling control starts to get really important.
On the leading thing, if you don't get to work and do some serious lead mining and get all the baked in lead out of the bottom of the lands, it will continue to give you fits.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
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