40-65 Paper Patch Loads

[SSShooter]

Anyone having success with their 40-65 using paper patch loads? Will have a new 40-65 to try this spring with a 30" barrel and 16" twist I want to try with paper patch and might as well start off with something that is working well for others.
BACo has a 415gr DEPP mold that casts a 1.42" long bullet that would likely be a good place start.
Thanks.

[beltfed]

Glenn,
I highly recommend the BACO DDEPP JIM #403380E for your 16 twist 40-65.
It shoots "lights out" with my 40-65/16 twist/0.150" freebore. IF i do my part. Loaded over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5/0.060 LDPE wad/ F150 primers
Stabile to 1k yds.
The 1.42" bullet is too long for full stability in 16 twist . It is designed for 14 twist

[beltfed]

Forgot to mention the 403380E bullet is 1.325" long for full 16 twist stability
beltfed/arnie

[Coltsmoke]

Glenn how far are you going to shoot this 40-65, sillywet, midrange, 1000yds., all of the above?

[SSShooter]

Arnie - wonder if it would make sense to have BACo make it 1.375" long to get it up to ~400gr. With 70gr+ of powder pushing it along am thinking it should work in a 16" twist.

Gerald - all the above. Primarily BPCR, but also a few mid-range BPTR (200, 300 & 600) matches and an occasional long-range (800, 900 & 1000) match.

[SSShooter]

FYI - the JBM Ballsitics calculator shows a 1.42" long 415gr bullet to be stable in a 16" twist barrel with a muzzle velocity as low as 1100fps.

[beltfed]

Glenn,

I get my 403380E bullet(1.325") up to 1403 fps with 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5 /F150/in formed/fireformed WW 40-65 cases.
As said, it is Proven Stabile and accurate out to 1K in my 16 twist . AND I do not expect big problems with knocking down rams at 500 meters with such a load. Jim K,( Distant Thunder) is knocking down rams OK with his DDEPP variant, designed for his 18 twist 40-65 at 1.25" long with a more blunt nose to get to about 380 grains.
If you ask Baco to cut a similar mold at 1.375", Perhaps it would work "OK" at 1K, but with this change, they will consider it
a "new" design.

[MikeT]

Glenn,

In my 40-70SS, shooting PP bullets, I have used a 386 grain 1.3" bullet and a 415 grain 1.42" long bullet. At 805 yards, the 1.3 bullet is slightly more accurate than the 1.42" bullet. I'm guessing that is do to the 1.42" bullet is less stable in a 16 twist.

LR shooting requires a higher stability bullet than mid-range shooting.
Through my experience shooting at LR, I'm beginning to formulate a theory that BC means nothing in the BP game.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[beltfed]

Spot on, Mike
beltfed/arnie

[SSShooter]

Based on all the info provided here (thank you all) I've marked up the BACo JIM403415E mold dimensions, going with a 0.175" base length, 0.375" to body length, 0.68" body length and overall length of 1.38". Diameters remain the same. Figure that will provide a bullet of 395-405gr when cast in either 16-1 or 20-1. Wrapped with 55w paper it should fit a Shiloh chamber quite nicely.
Now if I can just find some 40-65 or 45-70 brass.

[beltfed]

Glen, can I presume that what with your 0.175" base band length you
have a short or no freebore in the new 40-65 rifle's chamber?
beltfed/arnie

[beltfed]

Glenn,
Would you like me to provide you with a couple samples of my 403380E bullet for fit in the rifle?
Or, had I already sent you some a while back?
If not,
PM me with your address
beltfed/arnie

[SSShooter]

Glen, can I presume that what with your 0.175" base band length you have a short or no freebore in the new 40-65 rifle's chamber?
beltfed/arnie

Am wondering what the freebore length might have to do with the base-band length?
I was actually thinking of a base-band length of 0.125" rather than 0.175" as that is about the max depth I would seat the bullet into the case.
Also, did send you a PM.

[Distant Thunder]

"Through my experience shooting at LR, I'm beginning to formulate a theory that BC means nothing in the BP game."

I am with you on this Mike, truer words are seldom posted here or anywhere!

The following is just my opinion, proceed with an open mind.

You can push the length vs. twist equation as much as you want, but you will pay a price at longer ranges and especially in quartering headwinds. In punching paper weight means nothing and BC is far less important than accuracy. Don't get so hung up on a specific weight that you end up with a less than optimally stable bullet, unless that's what you want.

Wanting to use my 18-twist .40-65 for silhouette and being concerned about the 1.240" length limit the slower twist dictates, I felt I had to go with a rather blunt design to keep the weight as high as possible for the rams. In doing so I learned what Mike T has begun to formulate, BC just isn't that important at our transonic zone velocities (1346-897 fps). You just can not get high enough velocities with black powder to stay above the transonic zone beyond about 300 to 400 yards, not in the real world. Why shoot a bullet that has a high BC shape and then struggles with remaining stable? The requirements are different in the transonic zone, work with the beast you're trying to defeat, don't solve problems that exist.

If your bullet is even a little unstable the higher BC is cancelled out and there are many, many things working to destabilize our bullets in the transonic zone. You need a design that is optimally stable through the transonic zone and thus maintains it's true BC throughout it's flight.

I don't shoot a lot of silhouette so I may not be as qualified as some here to say what it takes to reliably knock down rams, but I do know my 382 grain round nose design has so far knocked down all rams I have hit and I have hit most of them. I never was able to hit all the rams with my 418 grain grease groove bullet which probably had a higher BC than this little paper patch bullet I now use. If I do lose a ram I hit with the lighter bullet I'm ok with it because I know I can't knock down a ram that I miss no matter how heavy my bullet is.

I believe that success in BPCR, whatever the target, is a result of your skill as a shooter, knowing how your load/bullet is affected by the conditions and the corrections needed to stay on target and matching a bullet designed for the transonic zone to the requirements of YOUR rifle. Because we tend to hold on this idea of a bullet having to weigh a certain amount in a given caliber and ignore the stability requirements of different twist rates, especially in the TZ, many of us have already lost the match before our first shot is fired.

In the end it's your time and money and you can spend it however you wish, I'm just telling you what I have learned over the past 20 years and wish I had known all along. My first 10 years I never had a clue so we won't talk about them. Enjoy the journey!

[bruce m]

jim,
what you are saying is use the best b.c. your twist will give you.
any bullet too long for it twist will lose b.c. when it goes through a temporary precession and nutation due to insufficient stability.
while not reduced to the b.c. of a parachute, a bullet a bit side on has far more drag than one point on.
not only that, but it will steer itself a little away from the actual trajectory, enlarging the group.
add this to increased drop due to a temporary loss of b.c increasing vert, and you have trouble.
this of course assuming the bullet does not actually tumble.
, making it go nowhere meaningful at all.
as you say, all these problems are magnified in the transonic zone.
bruce.