40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Post Reply
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Here is my last photo I will post here about alloy temper. I have to start casting. I have a feeling the matches will open again next season :D

Here is an example of Brent's prolate bullet shot with my .45-70 with alloy of 1/16 T/L (top bullet) 1/15, 1/14, 1/13.
I started with 1/14 tin/lead and added a one pound ingot and just cast two of each to not delete the mix too much. It made it easier than changing out the pot, ant all bullets were patched snug to bore.

IMG_2273.JPG
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
GrumpyBear
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 6:42 pm
Location: Western,Pa

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by GrumpyBear »

Kurt wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:17 am Here is my last photo I will post here about alloy temper. I have to start casting. I have a feeling the matches will open again next season :D

Here is an example of Brent's prolate bullet shot with my .45-70 with alloy of 1/16 T/L (top bullet) 1/15, 1/14, 1/13.
I started with 1/14 tin/lead and added a one pound ingot and just cast two of each to not delete the mix too much. It made it easier than changing out the pot, ant all bullets were patched snug to bore.


IMG_2273.JPG
To my eye there is very little difference in the 1:15, 1:14, and 1:13 bullets , am I mistaken ?
Kenny Wasserburger
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
Location: Gillette, Wyoming

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

If what I am seeing is correct the 13-1 bullet barely has any rifling on the slug. :?:


I accidentally created a pot of 10-1 a few years ago, shot them at Alliance Neb. Tied for first place in scope in the long range, on the 900 target in was in the middle a discernible spot grew shot after shot 9/10 hit. It was accurate but to rich for my blood.


Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Grumpy,

I think it's the light and also that bullet is slightly twisted up more than 14.
But it also could be when I added the one lb ingot I did not get it stirred enough getting it blended enough.
I usually take small paint stirrer you mount to a drill and mix my alloy using it while I flux the mix.
I don't have those bullets anymore they been recycled and I lost the notes when I left my book at the range and it never found it's way to the lost and found. So I don't have the records of setback.
I really don't worry about setback. I look at bullet alloy how they engrave the lands. When running a hard alloy you better patch it tight or better yet patch them to bore diameter but the draw back is you will loose powder capacity. A groove diameter PP I see shooting better than a bore diameter. I think it just gets a better gas seal when the charge goes off and it gets less setback holding the ogive. This is where Arnies DDEPP smiles when the expanded base portion is patched to groove diameter and properly seated in the case.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
bruce m
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
Location: australia

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by bruce m »

kurt,
my 12:1 look like your 16:1.
mine are patched with seth cole 55y,55w, or a apaer used for making patters when sewing.
these papers are pretty thin.
the bullets slide into the bore with a little, but not much friction.
my breech seating bullets are bigger than bore and are harder to push in.
either thinner paper, or something different in our lead must be the difference.
it is easy to talk at cross purposes on this subject, but pictures talk louder than words.
testing tells all.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Bruce,
I seldom use paper less than .0018" mostly I use Southworth 75% or 100% cotton or I use the paper mill paper that is .002" I stay away from paper that is less than groove depth with two wraps.
Wads under the bullets also changes the land impressions, especially soft wads like cork or felt.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
Kenny Wasserburger
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
Location: Gillette, Wyoming

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

The top bullet in 16-1 looks like it bumped up above the patch.
Sorry I forgot to mention it in my last post.

Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Yes Kenny, Some do some don't. It all depends what the powder load is and the wad under the bullet.
Well I will post one more picture for reference. :D maybe two :D

926720b5-be7c-4eea-8f4c-1f5d055dfb0c_zpseoyk2fxi.jpg
Recycling all of these 3 lb coffee cans full of test bullets of all various alloys will make an interesting project on what the alloy temper will end out at :D
IMG_3431.JPG
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
bruce m
Posts: 3350
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
Location: australia

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by bruce m »

Kurt wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:56 pm Bruce,
I seldom use paper less than .0018" mostly I use Southworth 75% or 100% cotton or I use the paper mill paper that is .002" I stay away from paper that is less than groove depth with two wraps.
Wads under the bullets also changes the land impressions, especially soft wads like cork or felt.
kurt,
that could explain some things.
i try to have total paper thickness less than groove diameter, and use a thinnish hard wad.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
Coltsmoke
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:55 am
Location: GA.

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Coltsmoke »

Dang it, I want a snow bank, Woody bring me a snow bank next time you come down. :lol:
Normal isn't coming back, but Jesus is.
Kenny Wasserburger
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:53 pm
Location: Gillette, Wyoming

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Kurt in the picture of the various alloys,

Just what was the bullet diameter before patching?


Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter
Woody
Posts: 6060
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Freetown, Indiana

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Woody »

I am South of the snow belt. I have not had to shovel snow since I moved here, except for one snowfall.

Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Kenny Wasserburger wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:45 pm Kurt in the picture of the various alloys,

Just what was the bullet diameter before patching?


Kenny Wasserburger
.4444"
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
User avatar
bpcr shooter
Posts: 800
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:30 pm
Location: Madison, Wi

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by bpcr shooter »

have you done any testing with a 45-100 or 44-100?? would like to know if we give it more "pop", do we have to make the lead harder than if we were shooting it out of a 70.

matt
NMLRA Member
Winnequah Gun Club Member (Lodi, Wi)
WIFORCE Member
SCI Member
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 40-65 Paper Patch Loads

Post by Kurt »

Matt,
I have not worked with the .45/2.6 but I have with the .44-100 Rem St and the .44/2-5/8 Sharps BN and the other .44's but first the blue screen on the last lap top before I got a back up and a manual with 18 years lost at the range and it was never turned into the lost and found. I can't comment on a lot of these from memory and I won't. I really should not be posting this stuff because I don't want to mislead someone if my results are wrong with the materials I use.
One thing I have found and that is using a rifle of the same caliber and even the same mould and casting with a different batch of alloy with the same percentage of components the results are never quite the same. I don't know what causes this, maybe the refinery is using recycled lead that might be a mix of WW or other white metals ???? I don't know. Even when I get new lead pigs from places like Rot Metal drop one on the cement floor the sound is not the same pig to pig.
Even when I blend new batches of the same percentages the test impression dimples are larger or smaller using the same tester than the previous batch of ingots. I really don't know what is causing that, maybe my tester spring is getting weaker or rusty :D
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
Post Reply