40-65 Paper Patch Loads

[beltfed]

Another way to state Kurt's 1# 95-5 Solder/18# lead alloy:

1# of 95-5 solder that is 15.2 oz tin/0.8 oz Antimony

18# Lead
15.2 oz Tin
0.8 oz Antimony

That works out to be:

94.74% lead
5.0% Tin
0.26% Antimony

It is amazing that small amount of Antimony "stiffens up" the alloy

beltfed/arnie

[semtav]

Bruce and Jim,
This has really been an interesting read, and something I've been struggling with.
How do I know at long range if its really the bullet falling apart when the wind gets gusty, or just my inability to see what the wind is doing.
I'm really happy with my bullet at 800 and 900 in all conditions, but it really falls apart in real gusty conditions at 1000 yds.
The only problem is the 1000 yd target is tucked up close to a hill and the air currents are horrible.
I've flow by those type of hills low level in gusty winds and know how bad it can slam an airplane around, can't imaging what its doing to a bullets trajectory.

obviously if my bullet just shot thru those conditions, I'd be able to say I have the perfect bullet, but is there such a thing ??

[bpcr shooter]

Arnie,
would it be a bad thing to double the Antimony?? would that be more inline with your lead mix?? I would like to try that in my next rifle.

matt

[beltfed]

Matt,
are you talking about doubling the antimony in Kurt's alloy?
That would be difficult using 95-5 solder.
But a person could use COWW or Lino to work upwards with the antimony.

As listed in other thread,
my alloy of 9+1 COWW/Lino
is estimated to be:
94.5% Lead
4.5% sntimony
1% Tin
Works well for me in most of my rifles and handguns BP or Smokeless
beltfed/arnie

[Distant Thunder]

Brian,

"How do I know at long range if its really the bullet falling apart when the wind gets gusty, or just my inability to see what the wind is doing?"

Before I make an attempt to answer this question it is important that everyone reading this understand that I make no comparison of my shooting ability and that of any other shooter and mean to only compare my abilities as they are today with what they were in the past.

That is a hard question to answer and I'm not sure I could draw line between those two things in my own experience much less in yours. I will say this, for me the two have been parallel journey. As I was chasing a bullet design that would better serve me at long range I was also getting better at reading the conditions and making good corrections that resulted in more of my shoots 1) staying on paper and 2) clustering closer to center. Those are two things that can really help improve your scores.

As I got better with reading and correcting for the conditions I also noticed that I had more and more control over the POI of my shots. That told me that my bullet/load was becoming more balanced or more optimal, if that makes sense. I have for some time believed that my current paper patch bullet gave me at least a little more margin for error when compared to other bullets being used especially in switchy conditions and that this was a result of it being a tad more stable to start with more than any other detail of the design. That is a length/twist function, mostly.

I remember early on talking with a very good shooter and he told me that there was no sense in making 1/4 minute and 1/2 minute adjustments on our rifles which were at best capable of 2 MOA. I knew what he was saying but I didn't think he was correct at the time and I now know he wasn't entirely correct because I can see these small adjustments show up on target as I make them, not necessarily in each shot but in the group as a whole as it develops.

The Creedmoor Cup matches that we have had at Lodi the past 4 years has help me immensely as develop my thinking process for when I’m shooting a match. For the Cup match getting centered up quickly and staying there is important. The time limit makes waiting on a condition less of an option. You need to look in your spotting scope, assess the condition, make any needed correction and shoot. It is a great learning experience and a fun challenge.

If you bullet/load is working well at 800 and 900 yards in all conditions and giving you fits in switchy conditions at 1000 it’s probably time to take a look at your bullet.

[beltfed]

Oh, forgot to mention, my
9+1 COWW/Lino alloy measures about a 15 BHN
beltfed/arnie

[Kenny Wasserburger]

This has been an educational and interesting thread to follow, we know that The English continued on with tempering their alloys with Antimony after the original Creedmoor era ended.

In reference to the 1879 Creedmoor match the alloys listed were from 14-1 to 11-1, in Edwin Perry’s book on the subject. We all know the expense of Tin these days, it would seem this Solder is a relatively cheap way to obtain a good alloy, with small amount of antimony.

My question is here, with a 16-1 alloy in a 20# pot, how much of this solder would one add to approximate a 14-1 mix with some antimony. Also for 20-1, which I have a large amount of on hand.


Thanks,
Kenny Wasserburger

[bpcr shooter]

Matt,
are you talking about doubling the antimony in Kurt's alloy?
That would be difficult using 95-5 solder.
But a person could use COWW or Lino to work upwards with the antimony.

As listed in other thread,
my alloy of 9+1 COWW/Lino
is estimated to be:
94.5% Lead
4.5% sntimony
1% Tin
Works well for me in most of my rifles and handguns BP or Smokeless
beltfed/arnie

Yes, doubling kurts alloy. I have some linotype laying around. kurts is .26% I was thinking of raising that to .50%, keep the tin the same. I have been using 16+1 with very good success but just chasing that rainbow now.

Or could I just drop the lead ammount 1-2#'s??

matt

[bpcr shooter]

http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm

little bit on heat treating if anyone is interested..........


matt

[bruce m]

to the best of my knowledge, lead/tin/antimony alloys have mainly been used with more antimony than tin.
the tin is only used at these rates to allow the antimony to form an alloy.
one advantage of this is of course pruning cost, as tin is so expensive.
then we have lyman no2 which has equal parts tin and antimony.
this alloy is generally too hard for black powder bullets, but when cut 50/50 with lead is quite good, and a little less lead can be better in some instances.
those who remember dan theodore's posts on this subject will remember his tests which showed that antimonial alloys varied in hardness with time.
letters to sir henry halford from william metford also refer to the alloy "ripening".
this variation in hardness has worried me as a bore diemeter pp shooter, but not as much for greasers.
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

With 1 pound of 95/5 solder to 18 pounds of lead I found the alloy actually tests softer than 16-1 L/T alloy, but that the addition of the antimony "toughens" the mix to resist nose slumping and/or setback. The amount antimony is small enough that I'd be surprised if it changed hardness much at all over time.

I have not experienced any problems with my bore diameter pp bullets over the past 4 or 5 years using Kurt's alloy. In this years CUP match I shot bullets that were cast last year. At one year old they shot pretty well for me. We'll see how they shoot at 2 years old if there are any matches next year.

[SSShooter]

My question is here, with a 16-1 alloy in a 20# pot, how much of this solder would one add to approximate a 14-1 mix with some antimony. Also for 20-1, which I have a large amount of on hand.
Thanks,
Kenny Wasserburger

As you stated 20# let's work with that.
In 16-1 you have 17 parts. 20/17 means that each part weighs 1.176# giving 18.824# of lead with the 1.176# of tin.
In 14-1 you have 15 parts. 20/15 means that each part weighs 1.333#. As you all ready have the 18.824# of lead, you need to add 1.333 - 1.176# of tin to get to 14-1. That's 0.157# of tin. There will be slight error as you now 0.157# more than 20#, but I would not worry about it.
If using the 95-5 solder, you will need 0.157/.95 = 0.165# of solder. You now have 20.165# total in the pot. Of that, 0.165 x 0.05 = 0.00825# of antimony, which is 0.041% of the total in the pot.

Please feel free to check my math. Just sitting around being bored.

[Kurt]

Menards is having another sale on one pound roll of no lead solder. Here is your chance to get some at a good price. https://www.menards.com/main/tools/torc ... 60&ipos=16

[bruce m]

Bruce and Jim,
This has really been an interesting read, and something I've been struggling with.
How do I know at long range if its really the bullet falling apart when the wind gets gusty, or just my inability to see what the wind is doing.
I'm really happy with my bullet at 800 and 900 in all conditions, but it really falls apart in real gusty conditions at 1000 yds.
The only problem is the 1000 yd target is tucked up close to a hill and the air currents are horrible.
I've flow by those type of hills low level in gusty winds and know how bad it can slam an airplane around, can't imaging what its doing to a bullets trajectory.

obviously if my bullet just shot thru those conditions, I'd be able to say I have the perfect bullet, but is there such a thing ??

a perfect bullet can only do so much.
you have just described why getting good loads for extreme conditions is very hard and you need to keep at it for the longhaul, and try stuff.
i remember testing at 1000, and was basically getting some good result, except for the odd shot.
3 were still on target but out of any logic that related to the rest.
when pulling down the flags afterward, i found that 3 consecutive of them had bullet holes in them.
i had so much wind on the sight at times that 3 bullets had gone right out into the flags, going through 3 of them, and coming back onto the target a bit low.
i just assumed that stability was adequate
bruce

[Aviator]

My question is here, with a 16-1 alloy in a 20# pot, how much of this solder would one add to approximate a 14-1 mix with some antimony. Also for 20-1, which I have a large amount of on hand.


Thanks,
Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny:

14 parts lead to 1 part tin would be 6.67% tin.

If starting with 20 lbs of 16 to 1 alloy, adding .17 lbs of 95/5 no-lead solder would bring the alloy to the same tin percentage as 14 to 1 alloy. The resulting alloy would be 6.68% tin, and .04% antimony.

If starting with 20 lbs of 20 to 1 alloy, adding .43 lbs of 95/5 no-lead solder would bring the alloy to the same tin percentage as 14 to 1 alloy. The resulting alloy would be 6.67% tin, and .11% antimony.

So really you get a pretty minor percentage of antimony with this method. But if you can find a good enough deal on buying the 95/5 solder, it would be a good way of adding tin.

Steve