Been wondering a while and figured now was as good of a time to ask as any. If you have a BN case and a straight case of the same capacity, say a 40-70. if you use the same powder charge, wad and bullet, same twist barrel what round would produce the highest velocity? Inquiring mind wants to know
Sam
BN vs Straight cases
-
MikeT
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 7:48 pm
- Location: Saint Cloud, MN
Re: BN vs Straight cases
The bottle neck cartridge is more efficient than a straight walled case.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
-
Distant Thunder
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
- Location: NE Wisconsin
-
rgchristensen
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:51 pm
Re: BN vs Straight cases
My own (admittedly limited) experience is that the ODG's may have been onto something when they went to straight cases. In several instances, they have worked better for me with BP, tho smokeless doesn't seem to make any difference.
CHRIS
CHRIS
-
Distant Thunder
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: BN vs Straight cases
Chris,
My experience is probably more limited than yours, but I have had excellent results with my .44-77. Now I will be the first to admit there's a difference between my .44-77 and my .45-70 or .45-90 and I have learned a lot working with my bottleneck. Now I've only had the rifle for a bit over 6 months so give me sometime to prove it out, but it's a good performer.
While Sharps dropped the BNs from their line Remington kept theirs and BNs were used all over the world with success.
I'm just wondering what Mike meant by more efficient.
My experience is probably more limited than yours, but I have had excellent results with my .44-77. Now I will be the first to admit there's a difference between my .44-77 and my .45-70 or .45-90 and I have learned a lot working with my bottleneck. Now I've only had the rifle for a bit over 6 months so give me sometime to prove it out, but it's a good performer.
While Sharps dropped the BNs from their line Remington kept theirs and BNs were used all over the world with success.
I'm just wondering what Mike meant by more efficient.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
-
SSShooter
- Posts: 2918
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 am
- Location: Jersey Shore
Re: BN vs Straight cases
Have "heard" many times how well BN cases shoot. However, I am not aware of any state, regional or national (or even local with 20, or more shooters) match won by someone shooting a BN cartridge. If you know of, please enlighten me.
Glenn
-
Luke
- Posts: 438
- Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:26 pm
- Location: Central Missouri
Re: BN vs Straight cases
I'm quoting MLV here, page 30 of his "Buffalo Rifles" book.
"Interestingly, the book "United States Firearms" has the information that a 45-70 bottleneck cartridge with a 400 grain bullet gave average pressures of 18500 psi as opposed to 16300 psi for the exact same weight of powder and bullet in a straight case. However, that extra 2200 psi netted only at extra 20 fps of velocity."
This in reference to Army Ordnance testing of various cartridge configurations prior to the adoption of the .45-70 Gov't.
"Interestingly, the book "United States Firearms" has the information that a 45-70 bottleneck cartridge with a 400 grain bullet gave average pressures of 18500 psi as opposed to 16300 psi for the exact same weight of powder and bullet in a straight case. However, that extra 2200 psi netted only at extra 20 fps of velocity."
This in reference to Army Ordnance testing of various cartridge configurations prior to the adoption of the .45-70 Gov't.
Limber Up!
-
Distant Thunder
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: BN vs Straight cases
Glenn,
As I stated above, I've only had the rifle for 6 months. Give me this next season and I'll see if I can come up with a name!
That being said, I'll just give up on my question about "more efficient", it wasn't that important anyway.
As I stated above, I've only had the rifle for 6 months. Give me this next season and I'll see if I can come up with a name!
That being said, I'll just give up on my question about "more efficient", it wasn't that important anyway.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
-
bruce m
- Posts: 3350
- Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
- Location: australia
Re: BN vs Straight cases
i have no exoerience with b.n. cases other than smokeless.
what i have read about them in black powder includes that they give extra velocity compared to straight cases of the same capacity, and that they keep more of the fouling in the case and less in the barrel.
how true this is, and if so to what degree, is interesting to surmise.
european military cartridges tended to be bottle necked to the end, but that does not mean that they are better or worse.
maybe straight cases came in purely as a manufacturing expedient.?
they are certainly easier to clean inside thoroughly with a brush, and getting a good even compression of powder is easier in straight cases.
i recall reading that little or no compression works better in bottle necks, and experienced guys might comment on this.
one thing is for sure.
some of those old bottle necks sure look good.
bruce.
what i have read about them in black powder includes that they give extra velocity compared to straight cases of the same capacity, and that they keep more of the fouling in the case and less in the barrel.
how true this is, and if so to what degree, is interesting to surmise.
european military cartridges tended to be bottle necked to the end, but that does not mean that they are better or worse.
maybe straight cases came in purely as a manufacturing expedient.?
they are certainly easier to clean inside thoroughly with a brush, and getting a good even compression of powder is easier in straight cases.
i recall reading that little or no compression works better in bottle necks, and experienced guys might comment on this.
one thing is for sure.
some of those old bottle necks sure look good.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
-
Distant Thunder
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: BN vs Straight cases
bruce,
I have heard/read all of what you say about bottleneck cases.
Again, my experience is limited so I know very little for sure at this point. It seems the more accurate loads I have found for my .44-77 have had very little compression with any of the different paper patch bullets I have tried. With pp bullets the capacity is plenty so using compression to get more powder in the case hasn't been necessary.
It does appear that loads using very little compression results in a cleaner burn than those loads with more compression. A lesson I have learned the hard way.
Accuracy with properly assembled loads has been MOA +/- out to 600 yards. Unfortunately at the one opportunity I had last year to shoot long range with my .44-77 I had all sorts of problems that prevented me learning much more than a 1000 yard sight setting. I believe I have sorted out those problems and hope to make a better showing for this great old obsolete cartridge in the coming season.
It is my opinion that the .44-77, especially when loaded with a paper patch bullets, is the sexiest cartridge of the time! Some may not share that opinion and for those shooters there are many other less interesting cartridges available.
I have heard/read all of what you say about bottleneck cases.
Again, my experience is limited so I know very little for sure at this point. It seems the more accurate loads I have found for my .44-77 have had very little compression with any of the different paper patch bullets I have tried. With pp bullets the capacity is plenty so using compression to get more powder in the case hasn't been necessary.
It does appear that loads using very little compression results in a cleaner burn than those loads with more compression. A lesson I have learned the hard way.
Accuracy with properly assembled loads has been MOA +/- out to 600 yards. Unfortunately at the one opportunity I had last year to shoot long range with my .44-77 I had all sorts of problems that prevented me learning much more than a 1000 yard sight setting. I believe I have sorted out those problems and hope to make a better showing for this great old obsolete cartridge in the coming season.
It is my opinion that the .44-77, especially when loaded with a paper patch bullets, is the sexiest cartridge of the time! Some may not share that opinion and for those shooters there are many other less interesting cartridges available.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
-
bruce m
- Posts: 3350
- Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
- Location: australia
Re: BN vs Straight cases
thanks jim, that is interesting.
after you have wrung out the 44/77, you might need to compare it to the 44/90 for 1000 yd shooting
but then the smaller case was also used early in the piece with 90 gns powder for the same job.
bruce.
after you have wrung out the 44/77, you might need to compare it to the 44/90 for 1000 yd shooting
but then the smaller case was also used early in the piece with 90 gns powder for the same job.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus
-
Distant Thunder
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am
- Location: NE Wisconsin
Re: BN vs Straight cases
bruce,
I'm not drawn to use the really high capacity cases all that much. The -77 holds all the powder I care to burn in one shot. There would be no problem loading 90 or a bit more grains in the 2 1/4 case with little compression and a shallowly seated pp bullet. I am currently loading 86 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under a 520 grain pp bullet with only about .070" compression. I could easily move the bullet out another .070" for an additional 4 grains (or more) of powder, but I see no need to. I find 82 to 88 grains of 1 1/2 to be all that is needed for long range shooting.
I'm not drawn to use the really high capacity cases all that much. The -77 holds all the powder I care to burn in one shot. There would be no problem loading 90 or a bit more grains in the 2 1/4 case with little compression and a shallowly seated pp bullet. I am currently loading 86 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under a 520 grain pp bullet with only about .070" compression. I could easily move the bullet out another .070" for an additional 4 grains (or more) of powder, but I see no need to. I find 82 to 88 grains of 1 1/2 to be all that is needed for long range shooting.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder
aka Distant Thunder
-
bruce m
- Posts: 3350
- Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:25 am
- Location: australia
Re: BN vs Straight cases
so many paths to tread, and so little time left to live 
bruce
bruce
ventum est amicus meus
-
MikeT
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 7:48 pm
- Location: Saint Cloud, MN
Re: BN vs Straight cases
Jim,
It was about 15 years ago when I got my 40-50BN in a 74 Shiloh business rifle.
At that time I was using 1.5fg Swiss powder. I usually chronograph my loads during development and I noticed that for a given amount of powder I was getting a higher MV per grain of powder than my 40-65. The loads were not the same but the MV was close. So I assumed that a BN case must be more efficient than a straight case.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
It was about 15 years ago when I got my 40-50BN in a 74 Shiloh business rifle.
At that time I was using 1.5fg Swiss powder. I usually chronograph my loads during development and I noticed that for a given amount of powder I was getting a higher MV per grain of powder than my 40-65. The loads were not the same but the MV was close. So I assumed that a BN case must be more efficient than a straight case.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
-
MikeT
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 7:48 pm
- Location: Saint Cloud, MN
Re: BN vs Straight cases
Jim,
It was about 15 years ago when I got my 40-50BN in a 74 Shiloh business rifle.
At that time I was using 1.5fg Swiss powder. I usually chronograph my loads during development and I noticed that for a given amount of powder I was getting a higher MV per grain of powder than my 40-65. The loads were not the same but the MV was close. So I assumed that a BN case must be more efficient than a straight case.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
It was about 15 years ago when I got my 40-50BN in a 74 Shiloh business rifle.
At that time I was using 1.5fg Swiss powder. I usually chronograph my loads during development and I noticed that for a given amount of powder I was getting a higher MV per grain of powder than my 40-65. The loads were not the same but the MV was close. So I assumed that a BN case must be more efficient than a straight case.
Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT