Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Kurt
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Kurt » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:25 pm

The left is a Creedmoor nosed bullet.
I cant tell you the particulars on this one because I lost the files.

926720b5-be7c-4eea-8f4c-1f5d055dfb0c_zpseoyk2fxi.jpg
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TexasMac
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by TexasMac » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:27 pm

Kurt wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:59 pm
Wiping between shots is removing the lube left behind.
Kurt,

Certainly wiping does remove the fouling and lube from the previous shot but I wipe with a solution of water soluble lube that deposits a film of lube. Therefore I only pre-lube the bore for the 1st shot. Other than small flecks now and then the only time I've experienced leading issues was when the bore was left too wet. Once I realized the wiping patches were depositing too much water in the bore and started using less wet patches the leading stopped.

BTW, for those reading this thread, the alloy I use and will use for both bullets is 16:1 to minimize slump (read setback)

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com

Kurt
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Kurt » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:38 pm

TexasMac wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:27 pm
Kurt wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:59 pm
Wiping between shots is removing the lube left behind.
Kurt,

Certainly wiping does remove the fouling and lube from the previous shot but I wipe with a solution of water soluble lube that deposits a film of lube.

BTW, for those reading this thread, the alloy I use and will use for both bullets is 16:1 to minimize slump (read setback)

Wayne
That is a good move.
Here are some with 1/16 Tin/Lead alloy and they had a single .06 polly wad under the bullet. Note the mouse nibbles :D

Sorry Wayne this got pulled away from your load work up.
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

Woody
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Woody » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:44 am

Kurt,

What do you attribute the "mouse nibbles" to?

I habitually shoot greasers at 25 to 1 and use .060 LDPE wads. I get clean bases. If I use fiber wads, I get the "nibbles".

Your thoughts?

Woody
Richard A. Wood
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Kurt
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Kurt » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:14 am

Woody, it would just be a guess, I don't know.
I see those nibbles on and off using both .06 polly and .06 NAPA fiber gasket.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

bruce m
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by bruce m » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:41 pm

kurt,
your pictures above illustrate the point about so called bore riding noses bumping into the rifling.
clearly if they were paper patched, you can see where the front of the patch needs to be.
the 2 patched bullets also illustrate a need for the patch to be a little longer.
when you see this you cannot help but wonder why bullets like the paul jones creedmoor design are used .
the nibbling is another problem.
my own method of avoiding this is to use a bullet whos diameter will slide with a little friction into fireformed cases in order to get the quickest seal possible.
this also has the advantage of improving accuracy due to less bullet deformation caused by excessive bumpup.
particularly at longer ranges bullets that bump up a lot can end up with the centre of mass out of alignment with the geometric axis, thus reducing stability and increasing vert.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

Gamerancher
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Gamerancher » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:20 pm

My Miroku built "Winchester 1885" in .45-70 shoots very well with those Paul Jones "Creedmoor" bullets.
At the Silhouette Nationals in Raton in 2019 it shot well enough to get me 8th place overall in irons.
I then loaned it to Aaron Farmer to shoot the scope match with as I was using my CPA in .45-90.
He used the dregs of my ammo and a bunch of scrounged ammo, ( Thanks J.Gage ), with various powder loads but all with the same bullet.
Spotting for him I was able to see that the bullet just works in that rifle. He did very well for his first match.

Sorry Wayne, the loads varied from 62 to 68 grains of 1.5 Swiss powder.
Out in western NSW where it don't rain much.
Australia

hepburnman
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by hepburnman » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:16 am

The PJ Creedmoor bullet has worked well for me also in my Hepburn. Many years ago, when I was fairly new to BPCS, I took 3rd place at a PA State Championship match in irons. There were over 70 competitors at this match. I don't remember there being a scope classification then.

Sadly now, maybe this same match might draw only about 25 competitors! :(

MSalyards
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by MSalyards » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:45 am

Kurt wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:14 am
Woody, it would just be a guess, I don't know.
I see those nibbles on and off using both .06 polly and .06 NAPA fiber gasket.
Just curious if you ever tried a wool felt wad behind the bullet?

Mike

Kurt
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Kurt » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:37 am

MSalyards wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:45 am
Kurt wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:14 am
Woody, it would just be a guess, I don't know.
I see those nibbles on and off using both .06 polly and .06 NAPA fiber gasket.
Just curious if you ever tried a wool felt wad behind the bullet?

Mike
Yes,I have.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

MSalyards
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by MSalyards » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:47 am

Still have the mouse bites with the wool? It looks like the PP bullets didn't have any.

Kurt
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by Kurt » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:38 pm

Mike,

Those bullets were sent to me with the instructions to shoot them in my standard .45-70 chamber Shiloh because he wanted to see and measure the alloy setback and expansion with the loads and components he used.
I very seldom shoot GG bullets and I very seldom get the nibbles on the bases, If I get gas cuts it's a failure using a proper wad stack.
From my use of felt wads I have not had a gas cut problem but I usually use a .023" OJ carton wad between the 1/8" thick felt and powder and the felt is cooked in my bullet lube that end up being solid. Dry felt I have never looked at.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

bruce m
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by bruce m » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:14 pm

i know a lot of guys get good results with bore riding noses, but you cannot deny kurt"s photos.
it sure looks like leading waiting to happen, particularly if you are wiping.
i have often wondered about having a custom mould made with dan theodore's micro mini grooves on the bore riding (before firing) section.
i overcame the problem by covering that section with jacket material, and so never pursued that thought.
bruce,
ventum est amicus meus

TexasMac
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by TexasMac » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:11 am

I finally managed to make it to my local range & run a couple of ladder tests with the bullets. The winds were mild when I left the house but picked up a good bit by the time arrived with gusts up to around 20MPH from 5:00. Not a good day for testing but I went ahead anyway. So ignore the windage effects. When running a ladder test you’re looking for vertical grouping which indicates possible velocity nodes or sweet spots where changes in velocity has minimal effects. The PJ 45001 Creedmoor results indicate a couple of nodes worth investigating further (9/10/11/12/13/14 & 16/17/18/19). Shot #18 looks like a good candidate. The PJ 45022-2 results were less conclusive with only one possible node (17/18/19). Shot #18 also looks like the best candidate.

BTW, for those of you that mentioned I'd likely be mining lead, there was no leading evident but I only fired 22 shots with each bullet including 3 fouling shots. I was wiping between shots with a 10:1 solution of water & water soluble oil. So I'll continue to keep a close watch for leading, especially with the 45022-2 with the narrow and shallow lube grooves.

Wayne

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TexasMac
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Re: Working on loads for a Browning .45-70

Post by TexasMac » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:31 am

I mentioned earlier that both of the bullets measure approximately 1.450”. Therefore I'm picking a shot from the higher velocity nodes to help mitigate the effect of the 1:18 twist rate in the Browning. Even with the higher velocities I would not be surprised to have accuracy problems at 500 meters and may have to go with a shorter bullet. But the two Paul Jones moulds are the only ones I currently have available. I also mentioned if I were having a .45 cal rifle built now I’d go with a 16:1 twist bore. BTW, the two loads I will be testing further will have powder compressions of around 0.170". The compression change is about 0.020"/gr of powder.

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com

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