40-65 Startind load and Bullet

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Raven
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40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by Raven » Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:03 pm

I have a CPA 44 1/2 ordered with a 40-65 Douglas XX barrel with a 1:14 twist, 30" long. This will compliment my Sharps 45-70.

What think you on Snover bullet or Saeco mold 61740 ? I am using Swiss 1.5 and 2f in my 45-70 with good results with heavy and long bullets.

I cant get a straight answer on the bore dimension so I can size the bullet. I will buy the bullets from BACO, not casting yet.

Any starting help and expierience with CPA 44 1/2 is aprreciated.

cw50-70
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by cw50-70 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:59 pm

Interesting that CPA lists 40 caliber barrels in stock in twists other than 14. If they got you a 14 twist 40 from Douglas it should be a .408 but I see that they have 14 twist 405 Douglas barrels listed which would be .405 but I doubt that CPA would use one of those for a 40-65. I got exceptionally good ES/SD from the Snover and 2F Swiss in my Browning. The Saeco 740 should work well also. You really need to get into casting where a whole new world of bullet possibilities would open for you. Especially as you would have the choice of alloy as store bought bullets may not have an alloy that your rifle likes. Don't be afraid to try something different - my Browning likes the 400 grain NASA II from an Old West mould over only 53 grains (that's no compression) of Swiss 1 1/2 for BPCR Silhouette.

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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by SSShooter » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:41 pm

Douglas/CPA mark their barrels under the forearm. Take off the forearm and look for the barrel bore dimension.
A good load for your rifle will be any 400-440gr 'Money-style' bullet from BACo or Brooks and 60-65gr of either 1.5 or 2F Swiss and a 0.060 wad. Like all our rifles, it will take some experimenting/experience to find out what your rifle likes best.
And, yes. Learn to cast. Almost infinite possibilities if you do.
Glenn

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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by hepburnman » Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:06 pm

I have a CPA 44 1/2 with a RKS S.S gain-twist barrel 16 twist. I also have a Highwall with an RKS S.S. gain-twist barrel in 14.5 twist.

I shoot the same load with about equal success in both: Lyman/Snover-nosed bullet of my own design (429 gr) and a 740 Lyman bullet (405 gr) for chickens. Bullets are .410" dia.

For everything but chickens: 70 gr of 1.5 Fg Swiss/ 0.060 polywad/ Fed 215 M primers. For chickens 63 gr of the same powder. The CCI-BR2 primers can also be used but will give about 2 MOA lower impact point. I also have 0.2" of free-bore in each so maybe your compression amount/accuracy may require a lighter load. Neither bullet is tapered, so if you are using a tapered bullet then maybe use the Lyman/Snover load as is.

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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by John Bly » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:39 pm

Many Douglas barrels need a .410 dia bullet for best accuracy. The Saeco 740 bullet is a good one but it seats quite far into the case unless your barrel is throated to seat it out. I shoot a bullet with reduced bands to increase case capacity. BACO sells quite a few variations of reduced band bullet molds.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"

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desert deuce
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by desert deuce » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:38 pm

40-65 740 Saeco 1-20 alloy Start 55 grains 1.5 Swiss by VOLUME Federal F150M best, Remington 2 1/2 will do Wad stack to .105" compression
Seat bullet hard into rifling. Start here, somewhere close to this should be good.

You can add one grain at a time while keeping the same cartridge overall length. Somewhere between that 55.0 grains VOLUME and 3 grains above that by weight you will probably find a good midrange and silhouette load.

For instance, 55.0 grains volume of my current lot of Swiss 1.5 weighs 52.2 grains. So somewhere between 52.2 grains and 55.2 grains I should find a good midrange and silhouette load. And yes, you will be increasing compression. Just keep the same cartridge overall length, wad stack, etc.

The only way to know the groove of your rifle is to slug the barrel of your rifle. :wink:
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!

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Raven
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by Raven » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:53 pm

CPA says the bore is 0.4085. Thanks for the starter load. I’ll get 0.409 bullets. Sound correct?

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Raven
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by Raven » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:53 pm

CPA says the bore is 0.4085. Thanks for the starter load. I’ll get 0.409 bullets. Sound correct?

bruce m
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by bruce m » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:19 am

i still wonder why people ask for starting loads without defining throat measurements, bullet dimensions, etc.
we all know thet a starting charge is how much powder it takes to droptube into a case so that the wad under the bullet seated to the required length sits on the powder.
then start adding and compressing till best accuracy comes.
then people start giving their loads which could be for entirely different setups, and bullets not the same.
there is no avoiding this basic necessity - just do it and be done with it.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

77 sharps
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by 77 sharps » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:12 am

I have 4 .40 caliber rifles. Two Badgers, a Shiloh, and a Douglas barrels. The Badgers and the Shiloh are.400/.408” but the Douglas is more like.402/.410”. A paper patch bullet that is snug in the Badgers and the Shiloh falls freely through the Douglas barrel.

beltfed
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by beltfed » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:01 am

cw50-70
The Douglas "405" barrel is for a 405 Winchester, that
has a larger groove diameter than for the usual 40 cal barrels.
Something like at least 0.411 groove.
beltfed/arnie

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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by SSShooter » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:07 am

Raven wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:53 pm
CPA says the bore is 0.4085. Thanks for the starter load. I’ll get 0.409 bullets. Sound correct?
Likely a good place to start. The BACo JIM409400M5 is a popular and good shooting bullet to get you started. It pretty much 'does it all' (but so do several others). As a master-class shooter told me when I got into BPCR.......... figure 3 years to get you and your rifle/loads sorted.
Glenn

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Distant Thunder
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:27 am

bruce has it right. No surprise.

Somebody else's load is not necessarily going to fit your rifle, there are too many variables.

Chambers vary considerably in these rifles unless they are chambered with the same reamer. The .40-65 is one with a wide variance.

Back in the days when I was shooting grease groove bullets for BPCR the following was the procedure I used to start my load work up.

Take whatever gg bullet you're going to work with and size it to fit the chamber/barrel of your rifle, no lube. Rest the muzzle of the rifle on the floor with something to protect the muzzle, a folded rag will work. Drop the bullet, pointy end first, into the chamber. With a Delrin rod push the bullet firmly into the chamber with some effort but not beating it in. Then take a dial calipers and using the depth mic place the end of the calipers against the end of the barrel and push the the depth mic down into the chamber until it contacts the base of the bullet. Mark down the reading, repeat depth micing it two more times. The three readings should be pretty close, average them if need be.

This dimension will be what I call breech to base (B to B) and when added to the OAL of your bullet with give you a cartridge overall length (COAL). If you take your case length and subtract the B to B you will have a dimension that will be the depth from the case mouth to the top of your wad after compression or base of your bullet if you like. If you want the bullet to be engraved by the rifling add that dimension to the COAL. All this measuring and math just gets you close you may need to fine tune the COAL as you move forward.

Next take a primed, empty case and slowly pour the powder you're going to use through your drop tube a little at a time until you have the depth from the case mouth to the top of your wad that was figured above. Finger seat the wad and put the cartridge in your press, ram up and compression stem backed off. Finger screw the stem down until you contact the wad then lower the ram. Screw the stem down the thickness of your wad. You should be able to calculate how much to turn it if you know the thread pitch. Raise the ram and compress the powder. Doing this should give you the COAL, figured above, with compression equal to you wad thickness, which is a good place to start.

With a lubed and sized bullet you should be able to finger seat your bullet on the wad. Test chamber the round. If the block closes with at least a little camming of the cartridge you've done the process correctly. At this point you have a loaded rifle, muzzle awareness and control along with safe gun handling practices are a MUST. Use your head for something other than a hat rack!

If you need to make adjustments there should be enough visual evidence to tell what to do next, more or less compression/powder.

With your compression die adjusted and readjusted as needed you should be ready to load and shoot some rounds at a target. Without changing anything else increase the powder charge in increments of 1 or 2 grains at a time and load 5 or 10 and shoot each load. The powder charge and compression are the only things changing right now. The COAL will remain the same. Keep working up until the accuracy hits it's peak and starts back down. Note the powder charge at the best accuracy. You should now have a load. You can then repeat the process with a different type of wad noting the best powder charge for accuracy again. Then again with a different primer doing the same. Patience and good notes will get you there more quickly than jumping all over the place and changing a bunch of stuff at once likely ever will.

That's how I did it with grease groove and still do with paper patch bullets now. There are a few things different with paper patch depending on the type of pp, but the idea is the same.

Be careful and have fun! Enjoy the process!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

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cw50-70
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by cw50-70 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:09 pm

Arnie, since Douglas gives no bore dimensions for their barrels and CPA does give bore dimensions for the Douglas 40 caliber barrels but not for the 405 barrel except to call it .405, it leaves the actual size up to question. You might wonder if it is a special 40 to mimic historic barrels that were closer to an actual .405-.406 rather than our current .408. Also, CPA does not list the .405 Winchester as one of the calibers they chamber for but they do list the 40-60 Maynard and my 40-60 Maynard is closer to .406. I'm fully aware of the barrel size of the .405 Winchester as I shoot Lyman's standard bullet for the caliber sized down in my 40-65 for 200 meter cowboy silhouette. So at this point, I'm afraid I will have to fault CPA (an extremely rare occurrence for me) for two things - not listing the 14 twist Douglas in their 40 caliber (.408) list and not specifying the bore dimensions for the 14 twist "405" barrel they do list.

beltfed
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Re: 40-65 Startind load and Bullet

Post by beltfed » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:17 pm

cw5070

Douglas' "405" barrel dimensions are 0.405 bore and 0.413 groove. It is NOT for "historical" rifles. You do not want that
for your 40-65. It is for the 405 winchester.that uses larger dia bullets.
Their "40 cal" is 0.400 bore and 0.410 groove which is what you want and which CPA offers.
" from the horse's mouth" All I did was ask them.
beltfed/arnie

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