Fundamental question on paper patching

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TexasMac
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by TexasMac » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:35 pm

semtav wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:47 pm
I just measured the necks loaded, this one is .435 with a .410 dia bullet, the snover is .436 with a .411 dia bullet.
maybe you need thicker brass.
All three of mine measured an average of 0.436". As I noted earlier and assuming the brass shrinks 0.001" when fired, using Rem. with .011" walls (0.22" inclusive) results in a brass neck inside diameter of 0.413. So a .409" or even .410" bullet will be way too loose. I don't know of any brass thicker than Rem unless I stated with significantly longer brass than cut it down. The difference in dimensions between the chamber, freebore and groove diameters means the bullets will be squeezed down in diameter by the freebore and bore.

BTW, I got good results with greasers in the rifles but never great accuracy. So I essentially gave up on the Browning .40-65 in favor of the Sharps .40-65 which has a tight chamber and excellent accuracy. And FWIW, the problems I've had with the Browning .40-65 chamber design does not carry over to the Browning .45-70. As noted in another thread, I'm "breaking in" one now and it has a tight chamber, i.e., bullets finger-seat nicely in fireformed cases without using any dies except for the compression plug.

Wayne
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bruce m
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by bruce m » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:46 pm

whatever the diameter is of the obturated case internal, so will be the diameter of the bullet before it starts to move.
they bump up in there, and are not what you see in your hand pre loading.
bruce.
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by TexasMac » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:49 pm

Don McDowell wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:18 pm
Wayne I think if the bullet is seated shallow in the case it probably won't be a very big problem, so long as at least the first 1/8 inch of the leading edge of the patch engraves the rifling when chambering. But you have to do with that just like greasers, find the happy medium for bullet fit in the throat and the rifling, but the catch comes by not getting so large that the bullet base gets buggered up.
Brians 404 diameter bullet might be a good option. I suppose you could order some precast bullets from BACO and wrap them up to see what happens, be a bunch cheaper than going thru moulds like they was cheap.
Don,

To follow your suggestion would most likely require a 2-diameter bullet. I won't mention his name but someone that frequents this forum has been trying to get me to use a 2-dia. bullet for some time. :) Until now I've resisted trying PP'ing. I just checked BACO's mould list and the JIM405390E looks like it might be a good candidate with a 0.405" base and 0.395" nose and body. With a weight of 390grs I would not be given up much over the 400gr to 410gr stuff I've been shooting.

Wayne
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Don McDowell
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by Don McDowell » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:56 pm

It might work. I had brooks build me a dual diameter bullet for the 40's that seems to shine in all 3 of them I have here, but the only Browning 40-65 I had now wears a 16 twist 45 caliber barrel chambered in 45-90.
My Browning and Winchester 45-70 bpcrs just don't care for patched bullets not even the dual diameter one that works well in a couple of other rifles.
But there's lots of ways to skin a cat, so you'll never really know if you don't try.
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?

TexasMac
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by TexasMac » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:58 pm

bruce m wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:46 pm
whatever the diameter is of the obturated case internal, so will be the diameter of the bullet before it starts to move.
they bump up in there, and are not what you see in your hand pre loading.
bruce.
Yup, I fully agree. As noted they will be 0.413" before they move.
Wayne
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by bruce m » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:13 am

so now you can work out your patch to diameter of the thick end of the dd bullet.
bruce.
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by bobw » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:06 am

Wayne load your case up with everything but the bullet(ppb) stick a 40 S W sizing die in your press and size down the neck a little at a time till it holds the patched bullet with the tension you want. Yes a vld inside chamfer will make it easier to start your bullets. Works for me but because of your large bullet dia it won't need much sizing just a little.
Lot of grease cookie haters on this site that's ok it's still a free world for a little while yet. My target ammo is all loaded with grease cookies but I'm not a big time target shooter either. The cookies keep my fouling moist enough that blow tubing works in 8 shot runs at Big Hill, the Quigley and occasionally the Mt 1000 in my 45's . Small local shoot to 400 with my 40-70 2.1" bn patch to bore and lube wads don't work to bad on that but the best I've done there was 19/20. Over the years of Q attendance I've managed to gather 8 straight pins on the diamond, rectangle, and octagonal using loads with grease wads. But guess I just got lucky so many times in a row huh.? I think you ought to try them yourself and find out for yourself just like Mike T did. Bobw
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ian45662
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by ian45662 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:22 am

Hey Texas do you have a browning BPCR in 45-70?

ian45662
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by ian45662 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:50 am

I believe the chambers on those are very similar to what is in my c sharps highwall. A 12.30 degree transition from the case mouth right into the rifling? If that is the case that rifle should respond extremely well to bore diameter paper patching.

VectorMan
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by VectorMan » Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:40 am

Wayne,
I have shot PPB in my Browning 45-70 for 2 seasons of silhouette in 2018 and 2019. Probably about 15 matches and this is what works best in my rifle.
Starline annealed brass. Fire formed and no sizing, inside mouth is chamfered.
BACO elliptical bullet .443 at 524 grains with 20-1 lead from BACO. Used as cast not sized.
Onion skin paper from BACO. CCI BR2 primers with notebook paper between primer and brass. Federal large pistol primers also work great.
76 or 77 grains of Swiss 1 1/2, no compression, .06 poly wad from BACO seated with a compression die from BACO just until it touches the powder.
After the bullets are wet wrapped they are set on a hot plate to dry for a few minutes then loaded by hand into the brass. Bullets slip fit into the brass and have just a little tension, they wont fall out if tipped upside down but its close. If you hold it upside down and wiggle it then it will fall out. Bullet is not seated in the brass but about 1/8”. I’ve tried a little neck tension to hold the bullet in the case and you could still spin the bullet but it would stay in the case better but accuracy suffered but not much.
The only modification to my Browning is Lee did his trigger job on it. I never shot it much in 2020 because the trigger pull went to 5-6 pounds one day while I had disassembled it. Now I have it back to 2-3 pounds so I will start 2021 back with the Browning 45-70 and the PPB to see if I can tweak that load to get a little tighter. My goal in 2021 is to take to a LR match but the scope rail will have to be re-evaluated, i might go to open sites if I can tweak the load a bit more. I use a DZ scope mounted on a Steve Earle rail. At the Ram line with that load if I adjust the scope 1 minute, the bullet moves 1 minute exactly. In 2021 I will be trying the exact same load except using 15-1 lead mixture. I clean between shots using Brownells heavy duty nylon bore brush with a VFG felt on front and back with a BACO plastic ferrule/owing on the back behind the VFG felt. I just use water the clean with while using these. I push I thru with delrin rod from Steve R.
The Browning will shoot PPB and shoot them well.
Hope this helps. Your book has helped me in many ways.
Thanks,
KA
"keep adding powder til it bloodies your nose and blacks your eyes, then back it off bout 5 grains."

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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by TexasMac » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:06 pm

VectorMan & ian45662,

I do have a Browning .45-70 but I'm not considering PP'ing for the rifle at this time. The reason for this thread is a beginning interest in PP for the Browning .40-65 to compensate for what I consider a loose chamber. After starting this thread beltfed (Arnie) has offered again to send me some dual-diameter PP bullets to try. I had not accepted his generous offer in the past but will now.

KA, I will keep your details in case I decide to try PP the Browning .45-70. Thanks.

ian45662, the chamber transition step is 12.75 degrees in the Browning's.

Wayne
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by beltfed » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm

Wayne,
I will get some of the DDEPP 403380E bullets patched and packed up for you
Also, will include load that Bob Wood is using in his Browning 40-65
Arnie

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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by TexasMac » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:20 pm

beltfed wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:47 pm
Wayne,
I will get some of the DDEPP 403380E bullets patched and packed up for you
Also, will include load that Bob Wood is using in his Browning 40-65
Arnie
Arnie,

Thanks a bunch. So why do I get the feeling that I'm about to jump down the rabbit hole? :lol:

Wayne
NRA Life (Benefactor & President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member, Author & Publisher of the Browning BPCR book
http://www.texas-mac.com

ian45662
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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by ian45662 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:45 pm

I understand. I have a feeling that those DD Bullets will work very well for you.

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Re: Fundamental question on paper patching

Post by bruce m » Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:38 pm

ian,
they work well for anyone that is prepared to use them properly because they are fundamentally correct for the job in hand.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

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