Frustrating day shooting

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mongo40
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Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:26 am

Went out today with my Shiloh Sharps, its a LRE 45-100 with 34" barrel. Was going to try and get it shooting a decent group if I could but just isn't happening for me, I started out at 25yrds to get it on paper and it shot a OK group with my 500gr GGBs then I tried my PPBs and even at 25yrds they were all over the paper. Went ahead an moved back to 100yrds and tried the GGBs again and they wouldn't group for me so tried my PPBs and they were all over the map, I've been told to move back to 200 and 300 yards but don't see the point if I can't get a group at 100. I had my PPBs on top of 90gr Swiss 2F, 95gr and 100gr. Starline brass and large rifle primers. Powder was dropped from a long tube and not compressed. bullets were not crimped tight, just enough to set in place and could move them with my fingers. Got home and my shoulder was hurting me enough I had to ice it for awhile, I can lift my arm now. Not new to shooting but I am new to this paper patching stuff and I've received a lot of advice from a couple of guys off here and i've read a couple of books so far so thought I could be somewhat successful today but didin't happen. I also took my Cimarron Sharps Carbine thats 45-70.. Shot some GGBs I'd loaded for it and got a nice group with it but the Shiloh has me scratching my head, I've always been a pretty good shot so don't feel its anything on the back end of the rifle. Sure would like to figure out what I"m doing wrong but no one around me that shoots this stuff so hopefully I can get it figured out.
Chris W.
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drcook
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by drcook » Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:22 am

Starline brass and large rifle primers.
Did you anneal the brass before starting loading ? Starline brass will drive you nuts until you anneal it. When I received my 45-90, I forgot to do this in my haste to get to a friend's farm and shoot the gun. It wouldn't hold a 1 foot group. Once I annealed the brass, the rifle started to shoot.
We thought about it for a long time Endeavor to persevere. And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union. I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender. They have him pulling a wagon up in Kansas I bet

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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Lumpy Grits » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:57 am

What are you doing for fouling control?
Give details of your load.
Gary
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mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:16 am

I did anneal the brass before I ever loaded it, for fouling on the grease groove bullets i have SPG on the bullet and a grease cookie of spg between two cardstock wads. Had a nice grease star on the muzzle after shooting them. For Paper patched I have a card wad on top of the powder and wiped between each shot.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:22 am

mongo,

I don't shoot grease groove bullet in my Sharps rifles and you shouldn't either! :D So I will address the pp loads only.

There really isn't enough information on your paper patch loads to offer too much help. Let's start with a few things I did notice and I'll list a few things I do that work for me in my rifles.

I see no mention of a wad? Type? Thickness?

The "no compression" thing bothers me some. Looking at the pictures, and I can't tell much, but I do see some variation in the seating depth or patch height, I'm not sure which. Something seems amiss there. Could be just the picture.

Large rifle primers. What type?

I have never used 2F Swiss, but I know people who do and it shoots well for them. I have always used 1 1/2 Swiss, but that's just me.

I loaded up to 105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my Shiloh .45-90 (standard grease groove chamber) and it shot very well, but bigger cases seem to be a bit trickier to get top accuracy out of with paper patch. Some use a wad stack of various configurations or a grease cookie with a wad on top and on the bottom. I had to use a grease cookie in my .44-100 straight to get it to shoot paper patch bullets.

What bullet are you using for your pp? How does it fit the bore? Alloy?

You said you use a long drop tube. What I learned is that after a certain length it really doesn't matter. Mine is 14" and works fine.

You mentioned crimping the bullets. Was that the GG or PP or both? I found that it helps to close up the case mouth to a slip fit when loading bore diameter pp bullets and I have used Lee factory crimp dies to do so, but just to close up the case diameter not actually crimp the bullets. It does seem to improve accuracy, but I do it mainly for ease of handling, so the bullets aren't falling out. I can carefully pick up a load cartridge from my ammo box by the bullet, but if I shake it a little the case will drop off. It's at most a very, very light crimp. I do believe a neck sizing die is better.

I'm not a big fan of annealing because I don't FL size my brass. I have never annealed my .45-90 or .45-70 Starline brass, however many do. I had to anneal my .44-77 for fire forming but that is a different animal.

I like to seat my pp loads for target shooting very shallow, only about .080" in the case. I like my bullets to be a "snug" fit into a clean bore. I wipe between shots and the bore is very clean and dry after I do so. I use a water and oil mix for wiping. In competition I use bore pigs of my own making.

I don't like to get the leading edge of my patches too far forward on my bullets, usually about .020" back from the start of the ogive. All my molds are marked in some way to indicate where the patch should start.

I dry patch all my bullets, many wet patch, both ways work, but I find dry patching to be more consistent in the finish bullet. I size all my bullets after patching to a uniform fit in the bore of my each rifles using custom made sizing dies.

For me large pistol primers have worked best, but I usually start my development with Federal 210 large rifle primers. Not all rifles will work with pistol primers, mine do.

I have used .060" LDPE wads with best results except in my .45-90 where .060" HDPE wads gave the best accuracy. No idea why. :roll:

With Swiss 1 1/2, the only powder I use for serious target work, I usually have .080" to .100" compression. The exception would be a particular 2013 lot that wanted 3/16". The newer lots seem to like less compression again, but it can vary lot to lot. Some compression is necessary to keep the cartridge overall length uniform.

That's all I can think of for now. Answer a few question and I may be able to add something. Ask any question you have and I'll answer those if I can.

Other here may have more to add to loading pp in the .45-100. I have loaded pp in many other cases with good results using what I outline above. Each rifle is different and some time and experimentation is usually necessary to fine tune a pp load to a specific rifle.

In the end it seems not everybody can get paper patch to work well and I have no idea why some fail, it really is the easiest loading for BPCRs that I have ever done. It's almost too simple even when compared to greases. Really!
Jim Kluskens
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Don McDowell
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Don McDowell » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:24 am

Get that damn grease cookie out of those cases with the greaser, If you don't think the bullet you're using doesn't carry enough lube, get a different bullet. Also make sure the bullets are .458 or .458 diameter, and cast from nothing softer than 20-1 and 16-1 probably preferable,
Next save the 2f for something it's appropriate in, get some 1 1/2 or 1 f.
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Kurt
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Kurt » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:32 am

Chris,

From your mention of the pain that rifle gave you I think the anticipation of the coming recoil is some of your problem.
Learning how to handle the rifle is just as important as learning how to load for it. If the rifle bites you, it does no good for getting the best accuracy from it.
Learn how to roll with the recoil to lessen the felt thump. If you stiffen up and sit squarely behind the rifle it's like having your back against the barn door when you set the round off.
And it might even knock your hat off. :D
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bryany » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:40 am

Shooting from a bench doesn't give your body any room to move with the recoil. Sitting cross sticks would be more forgiving.

You've got to do something to manage fouling if you want to shoot groups. Blow tubing with grease groove, well organized wiping with paper patch to get a clean dry bore from what I understand.

Bryan
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mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:26 am

Jim, I drop the powder then put a card wad on and compress just enough to get the card level, I dry wrap my bullet and set it in then run it up in a Lyman blackpowder crumpet till it gets finger tight. I wipe between each shot, one wet then one dry. I’ll have to look cant remeber what brand primers I’m using but have several different brands. I would still expect to get something that resembles a group but didn’t happen. As far as my shooting, I’m a big guy and I don’t flinch when I shoot, being retired Infantry, I’ve got a lot of experience shooting all kinds of weapons, but these things are different as you know. I was wearing a coat but after awhile I started feeling it.
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mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:56 am

The patched bullet I’m shooting is a JIM443530e .443dia.
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by gunlaker » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:14 pm

I'd advise paying attention to what Bryan Y says about the Shiloh .45-100. There are not too many who have it working as well as he does.

With respect to annealing, when I got my Shiloh in .45-90 I was surprised as it shot terribly. 6" groups at 200 was about average. Then I annealed the cases to be quite soft. This was done by rotating the cases in a battery powered screwdriver in a propane torch for a count of 6 seconds. That rifle is just like my other Shiloh Sharps rifles now. Super accurate. The heavy annealing made a huge difference. I wouldn't have believed it unless I'd seen it for myself.

With respect to recoil, I'd recommend a Shooters Friend rubber slip on pad. Very ugly but very effective in reducing recoil. They do get soft in the hot sun though. If you prefer the wearable style recoil pad, the Rand Elite ones that Buffalo Arms sells works better than anything I've used. They just don't work with my prone technique though.

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desert deuce
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by desert deuce » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:18 pm

With my current lot of swiss 2F it took between .160 and .170 inches before the ES and groups came together.

Moral of the story, compression matters.
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desert deuce
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by desert deuce » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:21 pm

.160 to .170 inches of compression in a 45-90 that is.

Your longer case may require more or less compression.
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Lumpy Grits
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Lumpy Grits » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:12 pm

mongo40 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:16 am
I did anneal the brass before I ever loaded it, for fouling on the grease groove bullets i have SPG on the bullet and a grease cookie of spg between two cardstock wads. Had a nice grease star on the muzzle after shooting them. For Paper patched I have a card wad on top of the powder and wiped between each shot.
You need to do fouling control after each shot whether it's blow tube or wiping.
You fouled out the bll on GG bullets.
Don't crimp, just close the casemouth enough to let you chamber the rnd.
"Hav'n you along, is like loose'n two good men"

bobw
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bobw » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:48 pm

1st things 1st don't ever load that many rds again that you have no idea if they work. Next 2fg might work with greasers but is not your best choice with patched bullets. Fg or 1 1/2 Fg for paper patch. When you change things change 1 at a time or you can t figure out what went wrong or why it worked from what you were doing. You asked. Bobw
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