Frustrating day shooting

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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DaveC
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by DaveC » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:15 pm

While you're developing your paper patch bullet load, wipe with wet patches until they come out a very light gray, and wipe with dry patches until the bore is dry. Alternatively, use a bore pig wet with water followed by a dry patch, and make sure there is nothing in the bore afterwards. If there is, run another pig and patch. When you have your load, you may be able to shoot all day with an occasional sneeze down the barrel, but right now you need to eliminate as many variables as possible, and powder residue with one wet patch and one dry is a big variable right now. It will derange the effects of your varying powder charges, compression, wads, primers, etc. and make it very difficult to see systematic patterns from your reloading changes.

Next order of business (for me) was the alloy hardness. Somewhere between bhn 8 and 12 seems the best compromise for paper patch bullets in my rifles between being able to slug up into the rifling and not having the nose slump at the same time. This, I would imagine, would be more or less something you would have to determine, since your bore, groove, paper thickness, alloy and bullet design is your own combination. You can use the proxy indication of lead/tin alloy if you don't have a hardness tester; 16/1 is a good start.

Usually, a big cartridge is best served by a larger powder granulation. Also, for paper patch bullets, the more powder, the better seems to be the rule of thumb for me. Some cartridges in some rifles will have sweet spots along the incremental powder addition, but more often, enough powder to seat a card wad and the bullet maybe 1/8" does the trick. Goex powders need some compression, typically; Swiss powders often can do without any, but a little bit sometimes helps.

Otherwise, your results are fairly typical for a first time paper patch shooter. Some people "get it" right away, and some (like me) slog through the darkness for years before the light dawns. My own .45-2.6" has yet to deliver a satisfactory paper patch load, but my two .45-70s and my .44-77 are both doing well. My go-to grease groove load in the .45-2.6" is Federal Match large pistol primer, heavy target paper primer wad, punched into the primer pocket as the primer seats, 77 gr Swiss 1F, 0.060" card wad (almost no compression) Paul Jones Creedmoor 45001 bullet with SPG or mutton tallow/beeswax lube. Starline cases, annealed at the start, can be as-fired or full-length resized and expanded, but bullet seated with no crimp and first band against the rifling leade.

I would advise you to get your grease groove loading down before you go to paper patching. It's generally easier to do that first, and learn your black powder loading techniques doing that. Fouling control seems less critical with greasers, as well.

semtav
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by semtav » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:16 pm

Boy, I feel for you Mongo.
After reading this thread, I have no idea how you are gonna cipher thru all the good advice and come up with what you need to change.

Only piece of advice I can give you is something I learned last year during the Frostbite postal.
It only takes one little glitch to turn a perfectly good Paper Patch load into a shotgun pattern.
The load I went 29 for 30 at the long range match this winter, shot a shotgun pattern on my first attempt after 3 shots because I tore the 4th patch on loading. ( may not have been the exact Shot # I tore but you get the idea)

Did you clean your gun thoroughly after shooting the GG bullets?
are the mouths on your cases real smooth?

Clean your gun thoroughly and try 5 more shots if not.

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PhilRich
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by PhilRich » Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:52 pm

In experimenting PP in my 45-70 I found that leading in the bore significantly impacted group size.

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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bpcr shooter » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:21 pm

In my 45-100 I use 108.5gr of swiss 1.5f, .060 poly wad, fed210m, but I also use the DDPP bullets. When I was shooting the 443 patched to 450, I loaded 100gr of 1.5f and compressed to get .080 bullet seat depth. You may want to fill it to the top (thru the drop tube) compress .080 then reduce the load until you have no compression, or go the other way and go up in charge, there should be a magic load in there somewhere.

Being its winter, the air is really dry, after your one wet one dry look down the tube and see if there is still fouling or better yet run another dry patch if it comes out black start running 2 wet.

Make sure your chamber is dry too!! wet paper= torn paper=lead in barrel. I would clean the barrel really well then shoot PP first, just to make sure there was no leading left from the GG bullets.

2f is good for the 45-70 but, your most likely going to be burning 1.5f if not 1f. not saying it wont work.

Go to Buffalo arms and buy their recoil pad.....worth its weight in gold for your shoulder with the big guns.
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JeffFaldo
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by JeffFaldo » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:28 pm

I forgot to do this in my haste to get to a friend's farm and shoot the gun.
You have friends? :lol: Glad to see you're still on the green side of the grass. Give me call when you get a chance.
mongo40 it looks like you have all the correct advice to get it shooting.

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:14 am

30 years ago when I first started shooting BPCR there was no internet and very little such shooting near me, as in none. All I had was a couple of books and some magazine articles by MLV and Elmer Keith. I had been reloading smokeless for nearly 20 years, but knew little about the black powder.

Someone starting out today, Chris for example, has the exact opposite problem, TOO much information.

After I had struggled for a number of years not knowing anything of how to make the black powder work in my rifle, a .40-90 SBN, and mostly shooting smokeless powder in it, the internet came along and I found the old shooters.com site. Suddenly I had information overload, but on a small scale compared to what we have today.

To make any sense of the pile of information I suddenly had and to sort the good from the bad I compiled a list of match results and I matched those who regularly showed up in the top of those results to those posting information online. It didn't take long to find common threads (pun) between the information and the results. I read everything I could find that the top shooters were posting and with that "GOOD" information I began my journey and learned to actually get the kind of results I had only read about earlier.

Once I started shooting matches I would seek out the guys at the matches that had it working and everyone of them offered me good advise and many helped in anyway they could. That kind of help and good information isn't always found in other shooting sports, but you'll find it here in the BPCR shooters. With their good advise and help I knew I had found a sport that I could improve at, enjoy and stick with.

Use the knowledge that the good shooters, not the people how do all their shooting with their computer, but the people that actually go to matches and win. Read what they say, talk to them at matches and watch what they do, be like them.

Even if you're not interested in competition and only want to learn to shoot the best you can you can still use the match results to filter out the BS and the BS'ers. If you do that you will be on your way to realizing the full potential of these amazing rifles, the awesome cartridges that they shoot and the black powder that they use to hurdle big chunks of lead to unimaginable distances with accuracy that most only dream of.

It's a great sport, welcome aboard!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:34 am

Lot of great advice and info, I really appreciate all the help and recommendations, I'm doing most of everything thats been mentioned but obviously I'm lacking somewhere and need to figure out where so changing one thing at time to see. I see primers mentioned allot and just don't understand how a different primer would make that much difference unless its the difference between magnum and regular and I do have both. I have a feeling its probably my amount of powder, my compression and seating depth of bullet and how I have it taper crimped.
Right now I:
1. seat a primer,
2. drop tube the powder,
3. put a card wad on and run it up into my compression die just enough to seat the wad an compress powder just to level it out.
4. set the bullet on and run it up into my lyman taper crimp die just till it snugs on the bullet but can still turn with fingers. I try to seat the bullet at about an 1/8" inside case which might be to much and some aren't the same cause level of powder is different sometimes as it doesn't always drop the same. I load by grain not volume. If its way off I put another wad in to try an make the bullet seat levels all the same but I'm not real precise with it. I've said enough to make someone cringe at something I'm doing wrong here I'm sure.
I've reloaded for years for all my other toys but this thing is a different animal all together.
As for wrapping my bullets Matt Steckel, (bpcr shooter) sent me some pre wrapped bullets to try and I just copied his paper patch and wrap on the ones I've done and feel that part is fine.
Someone told me not to load up so many bullets at one time but thats not a big deal really since the bullet pulls right out by hand and I can dump the contents no problem and just start over.
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semtav
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by semtav » Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:45 am

maybe I'm just missing it but still don't see what alloy you are using.

mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:00 am

Lead

its a mixture of pure lead and wheel weights, no ideal what the hardness is.
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MikeT
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by MikeT » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am

mongo40,
After reading how you were loading, and not getting any results, I believe you need to start over.
The most important issue in rifle accuracy is a lead free barrel. Start there and verify that you do not have a lead issue.
Once you have a clean barrel, then load only one type of bullet [GG or PP] and develop a load. Always be aware that lead can reappear after only one shot, so clean the barrel thoroughly after every shot to start with. Once you are confident that your bullet of choice is not depositing lead in the barrel, then you can concentrate on the other components.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:55 am

Chris I read through this thread again and here is what I can offer. This is for paper patch, I don't do grease groove in these rifles and can't help much there.

This is a sport heavy in variables, to do well you have to minimize those variables. The biggest variable is the shooter!

You need to get your drop tube powder column height to be as uniform as possible as dropped. You should have some compression when you seat the wad in all your loads. All wad(s) need to be the same whether it's 1 or 2 or 3 (pick a # and stick with it), but each cartridge needs to be the same. You would probably be best off with .060" poly wads to start with.

You need to get your alloy to a know hardness, preferably a 16:1 equivalent to start with. That's about 10 to 11 BHN. If you don't know how hard your alloy is you're going to have a hard time replicating it and adjusting it. Get a hardness tester.

You should be working with Swiss 1 1/2 or 1f to start with, especially in that big case.

Be very careful with your taper crimp. Just being able "turn" the bullet may be too tight. You should be able to pull the bullet, see that there are NO marks on the paper from the crimp and then reseat the bullet without any damage to the paper, it needs to be a VERY LIGHT hold on the bullet. Your cases will need to be very uniform in their length to do this with a taper crimp. A neck sizing die is more forgiving in the area.

You have annealed your cases and that's probably best, but it can be over done so be careful.

Your barrel needs to be CLEAN at the start of shooting and VERY CLEAN between each shot.

Do something to reduce felt recoil. If you're sore after shooting then your are at very least subconsciously thinking about the recoil before and during the shot. That will not help your shooting.

Change ONE thing at a time and keep good notes on everything you do, even the things that didn't work, especially the things that didn't work. You'll build a history and avoid repeating mistakes.

Accept the fact that one little thing different in your loads will have an effect that you'll see on the target. Believe that because it is true! The very last thing I experiment with when developing loads for a new rifle is the primer. I do this because my notes dating back many years that show me which primers have been the best choice to start with on each type of powder, so if I'm using this brand of powder I use that primer. Notes are important.

You should be able to read through the advise given in this thread and make note of the common recommendations and then make the adjustments. You need to change a some of the things you are doing to get to a good starting point. Changing just one of them may not change your results. It entirely up to you, but you have received some very good advise from people who have traveled this road before you, listen to them and you should do well.

Have a nice journey!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bpcr shooter » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:51 am

Jim the bullets I sent him were the .443E from BACO and the one you made. Both were cast from 16+1.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 pm

Matt,
16:1 is a good starting point, always.

Those were patched. How do they fit his bore? If the fit is good then he needs to load them over some 1 1/2 Swiss with a .060 poly wad compressed about .100" so the straight sided bullets are .100 to .150 in the case. I'd go with a Federal 210 primer to start with.

That should group fairly well and then work from there.

I have worked a little, very little, with the BACO 443530E and it shows very good results from the first test. The mold I have casts at .444", patched with my 9# paper and run through my sizing die it fits my Hepburn perfectly.

It's a good bullet, but a touch pointer and longer than I like. I could make it work, right now it's just a backup to my Lodi bullet. Your 2D bullet is cut like my Lodi bullet and is a good one, but is more tied down as to seating depth. It's probably better for him to start with a straight bore diameter bullet.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:32 pm

How are you testing your lead to come up with 16:1 ?
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bruce m
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bruce m » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:41 pm

mongo,
most of the suggestions here are good and meaningful.
distant thunder in particular gives good advice.
however a lot of it is about fine tuning, and you are not at that stage yet.
how you describe your groups suggests something is seriously wrong.
a lot of old dead guy stuff recommends only droptubing the powder, and i have shot some excellent groups doing just that.
however they say that the powder height in the cases should all be the same and to throw away any case that does not fill to the same height.
to do this you must have cases that are fireformed thoroughly, as new brass can vary this way.
modern brass is generally so consistent that this is unnecessary, particularly if you pre weigh it.
you can get the column height pretty consistent with practice, but never the same exactly.
so we come to compression of powder.
this will bring all column heights the same.
that allows an exact seating depth the same for finger seated bullets, which in turn gives the same relationship to the rifling of the bullets, as well as the same case capacity for all loads.
it has the added bonus that when you chamber rounds, the compressed powder does not allow the bullets to push back giving different seating depths and different compressions.
well droptubed charges of swiss will offer enough resistance when compressed 1/10" to resist bullet pushback from any sensible bullet, gg or pp, that is not specialized.
some gg guys use a cartridge pusher to engrave the lands into full sized grease bands, but you are not ready to go there yet.
you need serious compression and neck tension to cater for that.
luckily 1/10" compression will be around the mark for swiss to shoot ok, and from there you can fine tune it.
if you must neck size, baco dual diameter expanders will make a neck so that you can start a bullet easily, and tension is such that you can seat and pull out again any bullet.
with greasers you can do well if not better not to size cases at all.
this is probably the place to start with greasers for you.
using fireformed cases and a greaser that will slide into them with the fingers and 1/10" compression of swiss with a seating depth calculated prior, you should get some sort of group.
consistent wiping and drying will be your testing friend.
of course yo need to be sure there is no leading prior to starting.
with a lot of greasers you might need around 90ish gns powder, whereas with shallow seated pp bullets you will need over 100 gns, so there could be a recoil difference.
changing primers, wads, alloys, and compression to a degree, and even seating depth will rarely bring 1 foot or worse groups down to i moa, but will make subtle improvements.
something is seriously wrong in your situation and there is only 1 way to find it.
once you do that fine tuning will be easy.
the easiest thing for you to start with is doing away with any sizing /crimping etc, and stick to a greaser for a start.
my own alloys are made from pure tin and lead, mixed by weight to known ratios.
however it appears that some bullets given to you are of known ratios anyway.
your own mixed alloy is unknown.
if the bullets are not taking the rifling or sealing it will not shoot and could lead.
bruce.
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