Frustrating day shooting

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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GrumpyBear
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by GrumpyBear » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:00 pm

mongo40 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:32 pm
How are you testing your lead to come up with 16:1 ?
Buying from a known good source like John Walters or Roto Metals.

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Feb 02, 2021 5:55 pm

Chris,

I use an LBT (Lead Bullet Technologies) hardness tester. I'm not sure if they are still sold or not. I have had mine since at least the early 80s, a long time. There are other lead hardness testers out there and maybe someone else can help with that. I believe Lee and Saeco offer hardness testers.

Over the years I have mix a number of metals to get to a hardness that is useable for my cast bullets and most worked pretty well. I think what is important for you is to use a mix that you know what is in it and can maintain some consistency from batch to batch. I believe the WW that are out there today can vary a lot in contents and some can have materials that are not good. It's been a long time since I used wheel weights so I can't really say what works there for sure. These days I buy pure lead and hardening alloy to mix in a controlled manner and I have a very consistent alloy as a result.

It's been 11 years since I loaded grease groove bullets for black powder and I always hear people say to start with gg first because they are easier than pp. I'm not sure that is really true. However, you probably will find more people to help you with gg than you would with pp and that will make it easier to get up and running, that's probably true. There are a lot of things that have to come together to make gg bullets work well with black powder and bruce gave some good advise on those.

When I did use gg all steps to follow for cases, primers and wads was really pretty much the same. The real difference is that your compressed powder and wad need to come up to the point where with the bullet finger seated on top of the wad the first groove diameter driving band is into the rifling some or at least up against it. I just posted in another thread here somewhere how I measured my bullets to set them up for this loaded length. If you look you can find it. It was in the past week.

Start with cleaned fireformed brass. Prime with a F210 primer (my choice for Swiss). Drop tube 1 1/2 Swiss (1f Swiss if you want) into each case trying to pour it slowly and consistently so that all cases have a uniform powder height or very close to it. This may take some practice but you can dump them out and try again until you get it working.

Start a .060" poly wad into the case mouth by hand and run the case up into your compression die. You should have about .100" compression and end up at the loaded length as I described above.

I always put a newspaper wad on top of my poly wads to prevent them from sticking to the base of the bullets.

Then it's just a matter for finger seating your bullets. I believe you said you were using SPG lube and that's a good one. If you check the loaded length of your cartridges using a set of calipers they should all be very uniform, the closer the better.

All the usual rules of of shooting for accuracy apply to these rifle, good trigger control, sight alignment, follow through and consistent hold and support of these rifle is very important.

Black powder really requires good consistent fouling control with both gg and pp. Grease groove bullets are a little more forgiving if some fouling remains in the barrel as long as it is soft (moist). It just needs to be consistent. With grease groove you really need to keep and eye out for leading! Everything can be going along well and the lead will build to a point where it all falls apart very quickly. Your rifle will not come back to accuracy until the lead is cleaned from the barrel. This is the main reason I don't miss shooting gg bullets, leading.

With paper patch bullets you should NEVER get any lead in your barrel, if you do something went really wrong. If you're shooting lead bullets leading can happen, but to get leading with pp you really have to mess up somewhere.

With either type of bullet you start with a powder granulation and charge weight suited to the case capacity you're working with and a primer known to work well with that powder. I always start with a .060" poly wads because they are the most forgiving and will seal well as long as thing aren't too far out of order. Your bullet needs to fit your fireformed case, chamber and barrel reasonably well and be lube with a GOOD lube.

Anything like the above should give something reassembling groups, they might be big groups but they should be groups. Then you can first fine tune the powder charge while keeping the same loaded length and you find a sweet spot where the groups are best. Then you can try a few different wad types to see if something else is better. Then do the same with your primers. Test and retest. One group may not give a true indication of what your load is doing.

It takes time to fine tune a load to a rifle, and it can take a LOT of time. I have been working with a new rifle for 7 months and I'm finally pretty happy with where I am. My next step will be to shoot my current load in a few matches this coming season and see what it can do at distance. My test range is only 220 yards, far enough to show if a load looks good but not the final test. For that I need 1000 yards and best if done under match conditions. My hope is that by the time I've had the rifle a year I know it well enough and it's working well enough to put up some good scores and be in the running for the top position. It is a process and I enjoy it all from the beginning to wherever it takes me.

I've been at it for 30 years and I'm still learning new stuff and I still find it an exciting challenge to get one of these rifles up and shooting like they should.
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

semtav
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by semtav » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:22 pm

Mongo.
As much as we all would like to help, I have a recommendation.
Because you are gettting information overload,
I would suggest you get with one person ( probably D.T) hes stuck in his deepfreeze anyway !!
Start completely over with known quantites and see what you can come up with privately.
then come back and let us know how you did.

Kurt
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Kurt » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:28 pm

Got you beat JIM :lol:
I started back in 1954 when you could still buy a rolling block for $12-$15. and I started making moulds drilling holes in boards and stuffing blasting powder in the case because we had a couple kegs out in the shed we used it for blowing tree stumps and splitting maple and cotton wood logs so we could handle then to cut firewood on the old W-D Allis that had a buzz saw on it :lol: and I'm still changing things to find a better way because I have to because my shooting ability is getting worse :lol:
But man what a fun ride it has been. :wink:
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

bruce m
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bruce m » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:33 pm

semtav makes a lot of sense.
only you can do what has to be done.
dt has given a lot of advice and it is good.
if most of the good advice here has anything in common it is this.
work out the absolute basics, get them right, and start from there.
what you might find is that doing basics is all you need to do, and going fancy or off on a tangent just makes things worse.
doing pp and gg adds dimensions you don't need at this stage.
while i am a preferred p. patcher, most find gg easier.
i would repeat that the rifle should shoot something resembling a group at worst, so some basic is seriously lacking.
find this and you will start to approach the mountain.
then you can climb it.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

bruce m
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by bruce m » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:35 pm

kurt,
you have had a good ride, and we are extremely lucky you have taken us on it with you.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

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Distant Thunder
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by Distant Thunder » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:59 pm

I second what bruce said, I feel very fortunate to have shared at least a part of the journey with you, Kurt. Your many years of experience are much valued. Here's to many more years of shooting together!
Jim Kluskens
aka Distant Thunder

A new age of tyranny dawns in the United States! If anyone is brave enough to say so they're destroyed by the BIG Tech branch of the Federal Government for spreading lies! "Reeducation" camps to follow!

mongo40
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Location: Southwest Oklahoma

Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:11 am

These rifles sure have you scratching your head! Anything else you shoot it hits where you point it unless you got something wrong with your barrel, it just comes down to breathing, squeezing and have your sights on, you know all that good advice your Drill Sgt slapped into your head! These things you'd think would hit where pointed with as long as the barrels are but not the case!!!
Chris Wilson

DeadEye
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by DeadEye » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:16 am

In the presence of greatness I will humbly make one suggestion. Mongo I notice you are using a folding table for a shooting platform. In my experience that would not be stable enough for what you're trying to accomplish. Keep on keeping on.

Paul
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."

mongo40
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by mongo40 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:33 am

Thanks Paul I figured it was more stable than shooting off of sticks. I know its not the ideal setup but its a pretty sturdy little table that I"m able to keep in the back of my truck and have just gotten use to using it, none of my other rifles seem to mind. We shoot in my Son-in-law's grandma's pasture and we really can't build anything permanent there plus the cattle would just use it to rub up on anyway.
Chris Wilson

semtav
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by semtav » Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:46 am

mongo40 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:33 am
Thanks Paul I figured it was more stable than shooting off of sticks.
From my experience which is limited, I'd prefer shooting prone off sticks than off the bench.

DeadEye
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by DeadEye » Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:51 am

Mongo, You spoke of felt recoil being more than you like. Like Semtav my favourite position is prone for my 40-65 and 45-70. When I get to the 45-90 I'm starting to cringe a little. I think it was Bryan who suggested Long Cross Sticks. I could not enjoy the 45-90 off a bench but I have shot many matches off Long Cross Sticks. Set them low enough that you're leaning into it and the recoil will just rock you back gently, well sort of. Anyway if you are anticipating pain when you pull the trigger you will develop one dandy 'flinch'. After all six hundred guys at the Quigley can't all be wrong. Can they? :lol: :lol:

Paul
"My heroes have always been cowboys and they still are it seems."

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J.B.
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by J.B. » Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:54 pm

..Ah yes.. the deadly quiet..after one's forgotten to bring the hammer to full cock and still managed to look like you'd fired a shot...even without smoke and noise :shock: . That's usually followed by a fantastic shot because you're that much more aware of how bad a flinch the previous attempt was :oops: How do I know... :?: :wink:
.. A good set of sticks and comfortable squat would be my choice over bench shooting if you're planning on reducing felt..or should that be 'anticipated' recoil. I've never shot my 74 from prone but I'd likely give it a go with the 44 or mid length 45. Dont think I'd rush into it with the 50 though... certainly not with the 690+ projectiles :P Sitting with sticks allows you to 'roll with the punches' and my elbows dont feel like they are wheels on an artillery piece. A 'well set up' set of sticks can be incredibly stable and consistent.
J.B.
"an experimental weapon..with experimental ammunition ? ...Lets experiment "

SFogler
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by SFogler » Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:02 pm

Before you take the great advice given in the last three pages from some very experienced shooters, do yourself a favor and buy a recoil pad - You can get the kind you wear at Cabelas or the kind you can put on the stock with a velcro flap so you don't have fool with laces at Connecticut Shotgun. https://connecticutshotgun.co/gamekeepe ... ecoil-pad/ (Galazan Gamekeeper $38)
I have both and they work great with my 45-100, 45-110, and 50-90s. I use the one you wear when I have a cheek piece on the stock for long range and the butt pad for silhouette and practice shooting. Guaranteed you are not doing your best shooting if your shoulder is taking enough impact to hurt.

charlie young
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Re: Frustrating day shooting

Post by charlie young » Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:27 pm

Recoil has been mentioned a time or 2, as a "Master Flincher, Trigger Slapper, Leaner Intoer", I have found this to be the best shoulder recoil pad, as has been mentioned. U put it on and it stays put, no slipping off your shoulder, once on it stays in place.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/large-right ... shield-lrs

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