Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

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TexasMac
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Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:42 pm

The following photos are the results of ladder testing the BACO 403380E paper patched bullets supplied by Arnie (beltfed). Arnie wrapped the bullets in Roselle tracing paper which is no longer available - 4 layers are about 0.0075”. From my point of view the results are inconclusive. But if I were forced to pick a “sweet spot” shot it would be # 8 (64.5gr). Keep in mind that in ladder tests the horizontal spread is to be ignored. Only consider the vertical results & look for a few shots that do not change in elevation with powder changes. If you can identify 3 or 4, pick one in the middle. In most ladder tests, assuming sufficient test loads, it's common to find a couple of sweet spots separated by several grains of powder in the load.

The 2nd photo displays the only remnants of the patching paper I could find after the match. An extensive search did not turn up any strips that extended the length of the bullet. This being the 1st time I’ve shot PP bullets I have no idea what the remnants indicate other than the base band fully obturated to fill the throat or bore & sheared off the paper around the base. Maybe some of you expert PP shooters can comment?

Wayne

Image

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TGC
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TGC » Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:50 pm

Wayne. Did you use the same sight setting for both bullets? Tim.

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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:24 pm

TGC wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:50 pm
Wayne. Did you use the same sight setting for both bullets? Tim.
Tim,

If you're referring to my earlier ladder test posting on the 409420M2 vs this one (403380E) then the answer is no, I did not use the same vertical scope setting. I shot the lighter weight 403380E 1st & then raised the scope setting 4MOA when shooting the 409420M2 in order to move the resulting shot pattern above the 2" target. Due to the assumed significantly higher velocity (no measurements taken) of the 403380E loads the resulting shift in the shot pattern was only about 4" or 2MOA.

I did not change the windage setting & you can see the results of the stronger SE winds while shooting the 403380E PP bullets, which may also be due to the effects of the wind on the lighter weight bullet.

BTW, I did not mention it in the postings but both ladder tests were shot using a 10X Fecker scope.

Wayne
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TGC
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TGC » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:28 pm

Wayne You are correct, I was curious if the two different bullets and loads shot to such similar points of impact. Tim.

semtav
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by semtav » Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:18 am

I'd retest looking at 7 8 9 10 11 12 again.
If 10 was a fubar on your part you had almost zero elevation in those 6 shots.

rgchristensen
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by rgchristensen » Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:28 pm

A graphical plot of elevation vs powder charge would be easier to interpret. And isn't that what a "ladder test" is all about?

CHRIS

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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:35 pm

semtav wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:18 am
I'd retest looking at 7 8 9 10 11 12 again.
If 10 was a fubar on your part you had almost zero elevation in those 6 shots.
Brian,

Good idea but if I go further with paper patching I plan to use a heavier bullet (possible the BACO JIM403415E) & will need to run another ladder test with it. Arnie was very generous in sending me enough bullets to run a test so I wanted to see what sort of vertical spread would result and also get some experience with loading and shooting paper patch prior to taking the next step.

Wayne
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:44 pm

rgchristensen wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:28 pm
A graphical plot of elevation vs powder charge would be easier to interpret. And isn't that what a "ladder test" is all about?
CHRIS

Hi Chris,

It probably would be easier to interpret but that would require more effort to measure the vertical distance of each shot from a reference point and the plot the data. :lol:

Wayne
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:50 am

BTW, does anyone have comments on the patch remnants displayed in the 2nd photo? As noted, I could not find any remnants from the side or length of the bullet, only what remained from the portion folded under the base.

Wayne
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beltfed
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by beltfed » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:38 am

Wayne,
I am surprised you did not find larger "body wrap" pieces of the patch paper.
I always find them within 10 feet of the muzzle.
On another note: you want to try one of the longer bullets for your 14 twist Shiloh:
Two choices from Baco for 14 twist 40s are;
403315E and 402415E
JIM403415E.jpg
JIM402415E.jpg
I reviewed the Chamber dimensions of your rifle you had posted on ASSRA forum,
Since you have essentially no freebore, the 402415E, with the short major/base diameter
would be best for your chamber.The bullet will slide up well on to the lands for best concentricity and
It will enable you to load up to 73Plus grains of Swiss 1.5 under that bullet.
I would also suggest using an alloy with some antimony in it to ensure no slumping.
Of course, we could modify it with a slightly longer major/base band
say about 0.200" as a compromise for added insurance on positive engraving with 16+1 alloy and call it a new design.
Arnie
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:20 am

Arnie,

Thanks for the recommendation but check your emails. On Friday I sent you an email & commented on the two bullets you mention here. As noted in my email, I measured the example of the 403415E you sent me and the length is longer than what BACO lists in the illustration. You bullet length is 1.442" vs the 1.42" BACO dimension. I believe the same measuring error or typo applies to the 402415E. So I've email Jim, the mould guy at BACO, & asked him to verify the dimensions prior to placing an order for one or both of the two moulds.

Wayne
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semtav
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:40 am

beltfed wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:38 am
Wayne,
I am surprised you did not find larger "body wrap" pieces of the patch paper.
I always find them within 10 feet of the muzzle.
On another note: you want to try one of the longer bullets for your 14 twist Shiloh:
Two choices from Baco for 14 twist 40s are;
403315E and 402415E
JIM403415E.jpgJIM402415E.jpg




Thanks for posting these two molds side by side Arnie I've been kicking myself for a week for getting the 402415E with the small Groove section when the 403415E would be better suited to my purpose.After looking at this and then going back to my invoice and mould , I realize Buffalo Arms sent me a mislabled mould. I ordered the 403415E and got a 402415E with the wrong etchings on it.

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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by TexasMac » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:53 am

semtav wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:40 am
Thanks for posting these two molds side by side Arnie I've been kicking myself for a week for getting the 402415E with the small Groove section when the 403415E would be better suited to my purpose.After looking at this and then going back to my invoice and mould , I realize Buffalo Arms sent me a mislabled mould. I ordered the 403415E and got a 402415E with the wrong etchings on it.
Hey Brian,
I'll give you $50 for that mismarked 402415E mould & even pay the shipping. :mrgreen:
Wayne
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semtav
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:26 pm

That might be a good deal for both of us :lol:

beltfed
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Re: Ladder test with BACO 403380E Paper Patched

Post by beltfed » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:10 pm

Wayne,
Re the length of the 403415E I sent you.
Indeed, I went back and measured another one.
LIke the one I sent you, It is 1.443"per my caliper. That was cast from the First Baco mold cut in that design I did for Harlan Glover.
He had sent me some to try in my 12 twist 40-72. ( Never did get to do that...)
The 402415E with the short .120 was (supposed to be) Very close in dimensions, except for the length of the major/baseband diameter.
Both were supposed to be 1.42" Well, the first mold was obviously a bit long at 1.442-1.443". I think if that is still
Looking closely we did have some , what I could call slight differences, But, I think that the 1.442" should stabilize well in the 14 twist barrels.
There were no negatives from either of the "first mold" people that I did them for. One, the 403415E for a 40-65 14.5 twist with usual freebore
and the 402415E for a No freebore 40-70SS. The differences in the first digits for base diameter are probably to show these are different molds
for ordering purposes. As you know, Baco will adjust diameters on a given mold design.
Again, I mention that perhaps you might like to have this basic design and length, but with the major/base band length at something like
0.2" so they could be seated slightly deeper, for handling in Silhouette matches.
Oh, and another thing about the original subject of this thread , the test of the "Baco 403380E"
The bullets I sent you were from a mold cut for me by DT/Jim K . It is the first DDEPP bullet I did. So, you might call it the "Prototype" mold. I do have some samples from the First Baco 403380E mold they cut for Ross McCollum from my drawing. I will do some measuring on it compared to the "Prototype" . So far, my mold casts bullets at 1.325" in 9+1 ww/lino and the Baco's measure at 1.323"
Arnie

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