Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

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Don McDowell
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Don McDowell » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:46 am

Jim, I have an original 44 bullet pulled down from a factory loaded round. It' interesting in that the length and weight doesn't line up with what we have been told it should be. It's much shorter and lighter. BUT the really interesting thing is under close examination a full half inch of that bullet was seated in the case, that can be measured by the light crimp ring left on the bullet.
If I had a lathe and the ability to use it, I would think that resizing the cases, and then expanding with a custom expander to just a .001 over the patched bullet diameter would likely be the best route to go. That should eliminate the problems with bullets not centering up well in the bore, provided the chamber was cut in line with the bore to start with.
In my 44's the bullet diameter and paper the rifle and I have come to be happy with, a simple trip thru the resizing die is a nice tight fit. Same with the 40-70 and 40-90 bn.
The 45's I have an expander from BACO that works well with the bullets I use the most, but is just a smudging small for this Brooks dual diameter.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Distant Thunder » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:47 pm

For the past 5 or 6 years I have been sizing all of my paper patch bullets AFTER they are patched.

The straight bore diameter bullets are sized in dies I make and carefully polish out until I get just the right fit. By right fit I mean just enough that I can feel some resistance as the bullet enters the bore. I learned the hard way that too tight is not good. With my .45-70 I spent a whole year fighting chambering my rounds more often than not. Once I made a size die everything started to come together accuracy wise for me.

With my 2-diameter bullets I only size the base diameter and that is sized to a slight resistance fit in the freebore if present or to a slip fit in the fire formed cases, whichever is smaller. The bore diameter shank of a 2-diameter bullet needs to cast so that when patched it is as close as possible to that slight resistance fit in the bore. Sizing that forward section gets complicated, but can be done. It's easier to adjust the bore diameter section by using a paper that patches it to a good fit. then so you don't end up too small on the base diameter it's best to have that made to cast as much as .002" bigger than the final size and then size it to fit your case/freebore once you have the paper that makes the bore diameter section the correct diameter.

Ideally with 2-diameter pp bullets you are using brass that fireforms to maybe just a hint bigger than any freebore your chamber has. I neck turned my .44-77 BACO brass to exactly that size and it works well. Getting all these diameters to line up is a little tricky and it is the main reason that one bullet does not necessarily fit all rifles. Remembering that fit is a function of the as cast diameter, the patching paper used and the use of any sizing die can go a long ways toward making a bullet fit a particular rifle. You just have to know what is in your barrel to start with.

It also matters who chambered the barrel. We are very lucky in that Shiloh has been consistently producing rifles that have some of the best chambers available for paper patch bullets, that being their standard grease groove chamber. Many paper patch shooters that I know have had excellent results with these chambers and I have found them to be the best readily availbe chambers with either straight bore diameter or 2-diameter paper patch bullets. The 2-diameter design just takes away the need to neck size the cases that you would otherwise have with bore diameter bullets. Just a light squeeze to hold shallowly seated bullets in place is all that may be needed.

With a well designed, tight chamber like those in my Shiloh rifles and the correct brass the bump up of even deeper seated bore diameter paper patch bullets is kept to a minimum, about .001 to .0015" over groove diameter, and that helps make them very accurate paper patch shooters.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Distant Thunder » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:02 pm

Don,

It was your original bullet and pictures I have seen of a few others that got me started playing with and testing more deeply seated paper patch bullet than I have use in my long range loads in the past. This adds a good deal of versatility to paper patch loads. That is what led me to wondering about the volume vs. compression vs. overall length question in the first place. So now I realize who I have to blame for this! :lol:

I think being able to load 75 to 90 grains of powder and still have good accuracy without some sort of extra wads or filler would allow my loads to be tailored to the target and distance as needed and would be a good thing.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:15 pm

Distant Thunder wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:02 pm
Don,

It was your original bullet and pictures I have seen of a few others that got me started playing with and testing more deeply seated paper patch bullet than I have use in my long range loads in the past. This adds a good deal of versatility to paper patch loads.
Funny that would come up now. Part of a theory I've been working on.

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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Don McDowell » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:42 pm

Jim that 1000 yard I posted the picture of, that bullet is seated right at 1/2 into the case, and the loaded round will just drop into the chamber. If I try to seat it out any further it won't chamber.. I dropped the powder charge back from the 84 grs I normally shoot with patched, to 82, and compression is still significant. But alas that info probably isn't much help to you as it's OE 1 1/2.
Now that I know that bullet will stay stable, and maintain pretty decent vertical, I will shoot it at 600 or maybe less, to take so much of the wind factor out of the equation and see just what it might be capable of in the rifle. I guess I do things backwards to most, first thing I do with a bullet/powder combination is trot it out at 1000, then if it shows some promise, shoot it at closer range to see just how good it might get.
Interesting thing with this bullet , a rifle either likes it or hates it with a passion. Got lucky this time this one likes it. :)
It always comes back to thinking out of the box, and seeing what works and what don't. Internet experts be damned.. :)
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Distant Thunder » Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:04 pm

That 1000 yard target looks pretty good I don't care who you are! I'll be interested in how it does at closer ranges and at any matches you get to shoot with it.

I only wish I could shoot at 1000 yards here at home, you're lucky in that. All my 1000 yard shooting has been at matches. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. There are a couple of places near me where I can stretch it out to 300 yards, but even that is a lot of work. I may have to do that this year a lot work or not.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Don McDowell » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:04 pm

It's one of the pleasures of living out here in no man's land I guess. In this 720 acre backyard, I can shoot out to right close to a mile and a half. I have distances marked out from 200 to 1000, and I have a set of silhouettes I can shoot from one point if we choose.
I've got another batch of those dual diameters loaded for testing at the next decent shooting day. Hopefully I'll run that bullet at the gong match at Alliance and the Midrange in Worland.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by bpcr shooter » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:59 pm

Jim if you would like, we could set up a few weekends this summer and you could come down for the day/days. I would be willing to pull targets if need be, most the time its empty, as long as a match isn't going on. we can talk about it more in a few weeks if you want to, just remind me :lol: I got a good memory.....just short.

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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:02 am

I thought I would return to a less controversial topic, compression in my .44-77.

I adjusted my compression die to give me more compression with the same 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 lot# 040313. Something my miscalculation didn't come out as I had plan and I only got .035" more compression instead of the .060" more I was thinking, this a process and I'll get there eventually.

The more compression and shorter COAL did not hurt any and the resulting group is not bad, but I am looking to reduce it just a bit more if possible.

Both targets were shot in the same setup with my 6X scope from the bench at 220 yards on two different days. The day I shot the second target there was more wind that was switching directions a good amount at times. I didn't have anything for wind on the first target.

Both targets were shot starting from a cold clean barrel. On both target the lowest shot(s) were either the first shot or the first two shots, with the rest of the shots settling in nicely. This is interesting that the first 1 or 2 would be 1/2 minute or so low and I will keep an eye on it to see if that trend continues.

Target no. 1 has 7 shots total because I was really just testing to see if 86 grains would group at all, so I loaded 7 in hopes of getting a 5 shot group with 2 being sighters. the first two shot were good enough that I just shot all 7 without any adjustments.

Target no. 2 I wanted 10 shots because I feel that tells me so much more about the load than 5 shots. I loaded 12, 2 as sighters and 10 for my group. It seems it was one of those days when one more cup of coffee would have maybe helped my math skills some. The first sighter was perfect elevation but on the right edge of the paper. I did some quick math in my head and corrected left, that 2nd sighter was completely off the left side of the paper! I had corrected twice as much as needed! Dang math! So I came back to my original windage and went 1/2 moa left and shot the group. It was a tough day in the math department! I was lucky the group was on paper.
44-77 comp 1.jpg
44-77 comp 2.jpg
Looking at these two targets Art's suggestion of going to a thicker wad to get more compression seems like a good one, especially in view of my math problems. I have some .125" thick LDPE material and I will cut some wads from that and attempt to get something around .090" compression and see what that does.

In my .44-77 the seating depth does not seem to affect accuracy much if any at all. In the end I hope to see if it is more the amount of compression rather than the amount of powder that gives me the accuracy I want. If that is true then I should be able to select the amount of powder I need for the target distance, adjust the COAL to get the compression that this powder/rifle likes and let the COAL be whatever it is.

I would then be able to load 86 grains for Creedmoor, 77 grains for silhouette and mid range and do it all with one cool looking cartridge, the .44-77. Whether this idea, if it works, translate to other cartridges I don't know. I did that sort of thing with my old .45-70 with grease groove bullets many years ago before I discovered the superiority of the paper patch billets. I loaded 82 gains of 1 1/2 for Creedmoor and 72 grains for silhouette using the Lyman 457132 bullet. Of course with 82 grains I was compressing the crap out of the powder because the COAL had to remain the same for both loads. With a bore diameter paper patch bullet the coal can be whatever and compression will be the optimal for this rifle/cartridge.

Testing will continue but it's hard to say when exactly because my summer will soon get really busy. When I do get to it I will post my results. So stay tuned boys and girls!
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Jim Kluskens
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Don McDowell » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:50 am

Jim I have 3 rifles now that have proven consistently all the way from powder burn close to 1000 yards, the following.
Bullets wrapped in Seth Cole 55w shoot well, but same bullet same charge, compression, yada yada, wrapped in 55y will shoot a bit tighter.
Something else for you to chew on...
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Distant Thunder » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:57 am

Don,

I have used 55W in other rifles with other bullets that were made big enough, this one and any of my other .44 caliber molds would be too small for that paper. Where I can use the 55W it has worked well.

The 55Y I just have too hard of a time working with, whether cutting, wrapping or clambering. I've had it fold over and back itself when I chambered rounds, that caused me too grief at one match and I just said never again. Maybe I'm just too careless handling it, I don't know.

All my .44 caliber molds are made for my 9 lb. onionskin paper, a paper that has served me well. I know if I keep working with this bullet I can improve on the groups, they aren't terrible now, just a little big. If I can get the groups down close an inch that's really about all the better I can shoot.

At matches it's more how a load/bullet does out at 500 to 1000 yards that matters. This 200 meter stuff really is chickens and not much else. I'm not sure just how much a sub-moa load matters when the barrel is flopping around like a fish!

I'll have a better idea how this load is preforming once I start shooting matches with it and that should happen in later May. I will shoot my Hepburn for the State Championship match in two weeks, but this Shiloh will be along as a backup.
Jim Kluskens
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Don McDowell » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:33 pm

Jim I found the 9 lb paper to just give to much vertical, and to many of the unexplained dirt diggers to be useful for competition, ok for hunting loads.
Wet patching with the SC papers is a snap to do, and makes for a very solid patch.
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by Kurt » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:30 pm

I just finished a two round ladder test load with my .45-2.4 and got the new DZ scope zeroed with the new lot of 1.5 Swiss I just got and I have to say that this new lot is a very large improvement over the last case I had. I could not use the 200 yard so I did the 100 mtr. Just as well because the wind was pretty active and I stayed close to the berm separating the two ranges and it gave me protection from the side wind. Also I got good sight picture on the small black diamond in the center. I did not make sight settings. The heavier the load the lower the impact.
I started with zero compression at 86 gr to 93 GR at 1 gr per load.
It looks like this lot has some leeway with compression amounts. I got 88 and 89 gr reversed.
I will shoot 87 to 90 grains again using 5 shot groups again Monday if I can get on the 200 yard range.
But not sure looks good for the 100 mtr line.

By the way, That is with the 5º transition chamber :D :D
IMG_0072 3.jpeg
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Re: Swiss 1 1/2, compression or weight?

Post by bruce m » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:39 pm

jim,
you are having a grand journey.
thank you for sharing it, and all who are joining in.
bruce.
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