45-110 loads for beginners

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semtav
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45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:07 pm

I've been doing a lot of reading of old posts on 45-110 loads etc. What comes up quite often is a post from a new shooter that has a 45-110 on the way or just got one and wants a good load to get him going.

Since it looks like the weather is gonna delay the start of my spray season a week or longer i thought i throw out a few of my theories on the question

I think three things should be established before any other advice is given, and they were taken directly from shooters on this forum.

#1 is an indirect quote from someone here, unfortunately i forgot to note who said it so dont know who to give credit to.

" Black powder is not about 'loads' its about a process"

Nuff said


#2 is an indirect quote from BobW

"Why would anyone even think of shooting anything but paperpatch in a 45 2 7/8 ?"

Just like the majority of people here that cajole anyone that dare shoot anything but black powder in these rifles, so too should anyone that shoots anything but paperpatch in a 45 2 7/8 . Its just not right.


#3. If Bruce has said it once he's said it a hundred times.

"Its a 45 2 7/8"

If you are gonna shoot these fine rifles get the terminology right and respect their history.

All i got for tonight. Maybe by tomorrow i'll actually have some theories for beginners ironed out.

bruce m
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by bruce m » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:49 am

well brian, you might have opened a can of worms here.

your point no 1 is without doubt the best advice to give to any beginner, followed by describing the process.
i will never forget when a guy described the basic process to me, and suddenly the penny dropped and the stars aligned.
i had a starting point.
point no 2 might well attract the ire of zack, but you need to man enough to take it.
point no3 needs a little study of sharps history, but if you are interested in sharps that is interesting.
the mere fact that the 2.4", 2.6" and 2 7/8 case were all meant for the same charge using normal bullets seems to get the crickets chirping these days.
the 110 gn load was for about a 190 gn bullet with a 22 blank in the nose.
it is a modern phenomena that some guys need to express manhood, and referring to the 2 7/8" round as the 110 seems to attract this mentality.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:38 am


semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:47 am

bruce m wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:49 am

point no 2 might well attract the ire of zack, but you need to man enough to take it.
DD needs to keep his minions away from the 45 2 7/8, there is no use having new shooters stuck in the same slimey gunk he's stuck in !!

:lol:

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:14 pm

.
.
Disclaimer #2. This thread is not meant as a source to produce National Match winning loads. Probably be best to wait for Kenny's book for that.
This is simply meant as a reference to keep new shooters of the 45 2 7/8 from putting the rifle back in the safe for 10 years because they were frustrated with their results.


I received my rifle in 2013. Found some Shiloh headstamped brass, put some components together and went and shot 4 different loads. My comments in the book, were "poor", "poor". "SoSo" and "SoSo". it then went in the closet for 7 years.


The first step in the process should be the cases.

It probably goes without saying that Norma Brass should be the first and only choice, but with the current component availability and the mindset of a new shooter, if they already found some new or used brass, that is what they are going to start using.

If one is going to actually go to the trouble of trying to produce a decent load, they will need the following items to make their Brass fit properly:

1. Cerrosafe- Unless one has a verified Shiloh chamber it would be foolish not to make some kind of chamber cast to make the cases properly fit the chamber

2. Calipers

3. 0-1" micrometer

4. sizing die. A 45-90 thru 45-120 die will work for this

5. Expander Plug. Not the one that comes with a regular die set but a custom plug to get the internal dimension of the brass to the proper size after sizing and trimming. It will screw in the expander die in place of the original plug.
this will depend on the finished diameter of the patched bullet that will be seated in the case. ( mine is .461 for my particular chamber and patched to groove bullets)

6. A good Case trimmer. These are long cases, I would recommend the Wilson trimmer with the 45-70 "new case" holder.

If one is lucky enough to acquire a new batch of Norma's cylindrical brass, the first thing that has to be accomplished is sizing the brass so it will fit in the Wilson shell holder and the chamber
Norma cylindrical brass starts out at 2.880 length and after sizing winds up at 2.900 to 2.910 depending on how much the brass was resized.
I would recommend trimming it to .010 over desired case length as I lost approx .007 in length after fireforming. regardless of the type of bullet one is going to shoot, the final result of a fireformed case should be .000 to .005 short of the chamber length at the transition angle.

The next step in case prep will depend on the type of bullet one is going to use.
There are basically 3.

1. patched to Bore dia
2. patched to Groove dia
3. patched Dual Diameter

sackett
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by sackett » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:19 pm

For # 6, the case trimmer. I would recommend getting the Lee Case Trimmer, even for the 45-110. Call them and ask them to make one made in their custom shop for your caliber and casing length. I think it was under 10 bucks for mine. As far as I'm concerned the most accurate and easy-to-use case trimmer out there.

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:59 pm

Before one goes any farther it has to be determined what type of chamber the rifle has if you already have a rifle, or what type of chamber you want, depending on the purpose of your rifle.
There are basically two styles of chambers, the standard chamber where the inside diameter of the mouth of a fired case is approximately the same diameter as the Groove dia of the rifling and the “paperpatch” chamber where the ID of the fired case more closely matches the bore diameter of the rifling. There are also different transition areas from the end of the chamber to the start of the rifling, with the 45 deg transition the most common. Plus there can be a freebore at the end of the transition area. I would highly recommend avoiding a rifle with freebore at the end of a 45-2 7/8 chamber.

There are basically three typed of paperpatched bullets we’ll deal with as mentioned earlier.

The first is the patched to groove bullet. Because this bullet is patched to Groove dia, it can only be accomplished in a Standard chamber. It is important for the inside diameter of a fired case to closely match the inside the groove diameter of the fired case. This is where an expander die comes in handy.
Because of a slight amount of springback in a fired shell, one may need to expand the case slightly before reloading to insert the proper dia patched bullet.
In my current rifle, the groove dia is.460. I patch my bullets to get a final patched dia of .459, but because of a little springback in my shells, I have to run a .461 sizer die into the case to get my bullets to seat. This makes a very nice smooth fit between the shell and the patched bullet because there is also a little springback when expanded.
When using this style, I prefer to seat the bullets so it takes a camming tool to push the start of the patch into the rifling a little bit to prevent tearing the paper upon ignition.
Because of past problems with rifles chambered with freebore specifically for Patched to Groove bullets, plus rifles without freebore require the bullet to be seated deeper in the case, limiting the amount of powder one can put in the case, very very few people would even recommend this type of load. I can easily get 110 gr of Swiss 1F in mine so it is not that limited.

The second style is patched to bore. Either style of chamber is capable of being loaded with a patched to bore bullet. The main difference is with the paperpatched chamber, one doesn’t have to resize the brass every time, whereas the case has to be resized everytime. Having the proper thickness brass to properly match the diameter of the bullet is more important with the paperpatched chamber. Altho with both, the final product must match the bullet to the bore. Since I have done almost none of this type patching, I would have to defer to the more experienced as to how close either side of bore dia one should wind up with the final paper patched bullet.
Up to this point almost everyone would probably have recommended this method. But the DD bullet may change that.

Now here is where I’m going to diverge from the majority and make a speculation !!!
Almost to a person, the recommendation for seating depth of the patched to bore bullet is very shallow, somewhere in the .100 range. I do not think that is a good recommendation for a beginner, not even sure about an intermediate and gasp !!! possible not even a pro.
I think this is one of the processes that gives DD so much ammo for his ridicule of PP shooters.
I think a bullet seated just a little deeper and firmly in the case prevents more possible chambering errors that may lead to total disaster from torn patches at matches where one is working against a clock and trying to concentrate on too may things.
Altho it may be more accurate and people like Kenny, DT and Bruce can wring the most out of a rifle doing it, I don’t think it is more consistent for the average shooter. Coincidently, DT just touched on that subject on another thread and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

If I don’t get totally flamed out after that speculation, I may continue on with the Dual diameter Load.

gunlaker
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by gunlaker » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:24 pm

I've owned a couple of .45-2-7/8" rifles over the years. Now I just have one ( a Shiloh 14lb bull barrel ). My first was a C. Sharps and it was a little trickier getting it to shoot. The Shiloh shoots the same as my other Shiloh rifles. I don't think there is a secret in the loading details, but more the getting comfortable with a rifle that's going to punch you hard :D. My C. Sharps was maybe a touch over 12lbs. Nice to shoot siting, but prone, I just couldn't stop having the eye cup smack my glasses each shot ( I am one of those that crawls up the stock quite far ).

The 14lb Shiloh shoots nicely every which way but offhand. When loaded with greasers like my other Shiloh's it shoots great. Swiss powder and a snug slip fit money bullet. With PP bullets ( which it seems to like more than GG ), I mostly copied Kenny W.

My advice to someone wanting to shoot the 2-7/8" cartridge in a Shiloh is:

1) make the rifle heavy if it's for targets.
2) read all of Kenny W.'s posts and copy what he does. He's shared plenty and it works fine for the rest of us too :-)

I can't say the same for other rifles though. My C. Sharps didn't quite work the same with Kenny's wad stack. A bit looser chamber was maybe the problem. It did shoot PP bullets with lube cookies way better than most said could be done, but not as good as the Shiloh.

Like Cody said in the other thread, you can get mislead on the internet. I was mislead for a number of years until I figured out who to listen to ( or just plain old copy).

Chris.

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:42 am

One last thing on the patched to bore loads. The case length is best measured in the fireformed condition. Once the case is resized it may be longer than the chamber. If you trim it then, you will wind up with too short of case.


On the Dual diameter bullets, I only have a couple things to say.

First
if you have a paperpatch chamber, your SOL. its patch to bore only.
If you have a chamber like Kennys, just copy him.
If you have a different chamber, get the chamber measurements, then come one here and have Kenny, Arnie and DT help you work out the proper bullet dimensions.

I really think putting that DD bullet a little farther in the case like Kenny is doing is gonna make the 45 2 7/8 a real pussycat. The consistency of a Groove dia bullet and the accuracy of a Bore dia bullet. time will tell.

As far as which bullet to use, there are several nose variations that could suffice. as long as the dia and alloy are correct.
the most common paper gives one approx .005 increase in dia. I like to patch my Groove dia bullets approx .001 under the groove dia so I use a .454 bullet patched up to .459. I also like a hard bullet in the 12-1 range for everything, and I think the 17 -1 (95-5) is gonna be similiar.

Is there more a beginner needs to know. yea probably but there is such a thing as information overload.
No where in here did I give "load" information.
I really believe if a person goes thru the process of getting the case that fits the chamber and the proper bullet and paper, the "load" will take care of itself. Put a primer in, put in enough powder to compress it .2-.3 with a proper compression plug, put a wad over it and go try it.
Then one can go thru the forum digging out little morsels of info from the experts and improving their load.

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:34 am

semtav wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:59 pm


The first is the patched to groove bullet. Because this bullet is patched to Groove dia, it can only be accomplished in a Standard chamber. It is important for the inside diameter of a fired case to closely match the inside the groove diameter of the fired case.
Pretty poor proofreading.
That should read groove diameter of the rifling.

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:11 pm

gunlaker wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:24 pm


Like Cody said in the other thread, you can get mislead on the internet. I was mislead for a number of years until I figured out who to listen to ( or just plain old copy).

Chris.
If you mean Cody's disdain for Orville and his 7deg transition, i see a pretty good long range shooter just speak highly of it. Just like DD's paperpatch argument, time will tell.

gunlaker
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by gunlaker » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:21 am

semtav wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:11 pm
gunlaker wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:24 pm


Like Cody said in the other thread, you can get mislead on the internet. I was mislead for a number of years until I figured out who to listen to ( or just plain old copy).

Chris.
If you mean Cody's disdain for Orville and his 7deg transition, i see a pretty good long range shooter just speak highly of it. Just like DD's paperpatch argument, time will tell.
No, I just mean being mislead by reading internet forums in general. Pretty much everything useful I've learned has been at rifle matches, not from the internet. Web forums are good entertainment though. With respect to Orville, he's a really nice guy and I'd never disparage him. I met him in Phoenix when we shot together.

Chris.

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:40 am

You are right, but most new shooters aren't going to matches, They just want to go out and shoot their new 45 2 7/8 so they have to cipher through all this info and develop some ideas.
Best advice then would be to PM a few of the good shooters and ask if their ideas are on the right track before even attempting to get all the components.
Even the good shooters aren't all going to have the same exact opinions about how things should be done.



the following are a couple good threads on case trimming

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9855
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt ... =5&t=27801

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 am

The thing with the large capacity cased Sharps rifles shooting full loads of black powder is controlling them and tolerating the recoil.
I never had a .45-2-7/8 but I cut my eye teeth on a .45-3-1/4 for many years before down sizing to a Shiloh .40-2.5. And I shoot the .44-2.6 and the .45-2.6 l plus the .44-2-5/8 BN you can cram in as much powder that the .45-3-1/4 will use. :D
Tollorate the recoil and tongue of these large capacity rounds and spend time behind the butt plate and they will shoot just as well as a .45-70. But in reality they are more than needed for the long range matches that the .45-2.4 will handle just as good.

As far as Orville's 7º funnel throat. I have one rifle that has it and I have rifles with even shallower throat's from 4º into a 2.5º lead, very long funnel throat that I would take any day over my .45º rifles I have.
IMG_2576 (1).JPG
I wouldn't get all these chamber and throating reamers made and have rifles build using those reamers for the chambers.
I don't shoot well anymore but when you see hard holders like Dave Gullo and others great National match shooters name under mine at the matches like the Quigley where 600 plus shooters get together end up under your name at the end those chambers must to be workable. And nope I haven't won the Q but I'm working on it as long as I can. :D
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semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:27 am

Kurt wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 am
The thing with the large capacity cased Sharps rifles shooting full loads of black powder is controlling them and tolerating the recoil.
Strangely this rifle is as easy to control as any i have. I jerk and flinch and shoulder all my guns on occasion but almost never with this one.
Its so predictable I never took a pre match sighter shot all year until the last match and only did that cause it was so much colder.
Course that doesn't help my knob twisting or wind reading skills which I really suck at. Hopefully that'll change a little bit this year

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