45-110 loads for beginners

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semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:55 pm

semtav wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:07 pm

#1 is an indirect quote from someone here, unfortunately i forgot to note who said it so dont know who to give credit to.

" Black powder is not about 'loads' its about a process"

Nuff said
Before I wonder off on my 40-82 project, I wanted to verify the accuracy of this statement to myself a little better.
Whether one could make a good " load" out of any old combination as long as the process was correct.

I had 25 cases I wanted to trim and fireform so I thought that was the perfect vehicle.
Without getting into specific numbers, I sized my brass so it would fit in the Wilson trimmer.
( one has to size Norma's 45 cylinder brass to fit in any chamber)
Then trimmed it to a length I thought would still leave me a proper finished length after firing.
then expanded the neck to the proper size like I do all my fired 45 2 7/8 brass

I then took an obsolete 2F powder, a Winchester magnum primer and my cull bullets and a different wad than I normally use and put the same weight in as my normal load munched it down (.450 in this case) and finished loading, took them to the 800 yd target and shot them. Surprisingly the majority hit the target with the rest real close.

Not satisfied with one lucky test, I did it again. After verifying the proper length, and proper case mouth dia , I put a Remington primer, and the same weight as normal of an old can of Goex Cartridge, and a different wad and went out and tested it again.
Same results. The majority of the bullets hit the 800 yd target and the rest were real close.

Both days were pretty breezy and I didn't bother doing much sight adjustments.

In 50 shots I had one flyer, a target high. it was a case that I hadn't sized right to start with and it required a lot of force to chamber, and I had to drive it out with a cleaning rod after firing.

So it is my belief, if one gets the case and the bullet correct, almost any powder with a decent amount of compression will get one started. then you can work on match loads once you realize how much fun the 45 2 7/8 really is. .

mike herth
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by mike herth » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:48 pm

This thread is encouraging as I shoot a 45 2-7/8, my only Shiloh with Orville's tight chamber for PP. I'm going to test various seating depths and see what works best, I've stuck with about 1/8 so far with OE Fg so I'll also be trying 1.5 Fg. And learning to read the wind!

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:23 pm

That 7* chamber really intrigues me. Especially in light of something I think Bruce alluded to recently.
I think he maintained that the bump up that occured in the case is all that section would see.
He' ll have to correct me if i misunderstood.

But if thats the case, would a person want more of the bullet in the case so the base is more uniform farther up,
Or would that cause more gas erosion if the wad doesnt seal perfectly in the longer transition area?

The 7* lead might be a perfect candidate for a good bullet trap or Kurt's big snowpiles.

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:48 am

Bryan,

The funnel type throats work. I only have one rifle with a 7º now, I had two but I pulled the 1/19 ROT barrel off that Shiloh and replaced it with a 1/16 ROT and put a 4º compound in the chamber and I like it even better than the 7º but I cant say that it's more accurate or not because I wanted to use a longer bullet this is why I went with the 1/16 ROT.
I have changed almost all my 45º transitions to the 5º or the 5º compound and all, ALL, the accuracy improved.

I posted more than enough recovered bullets showing the difference between the regular 45º and the funnel type transitions with the tighter chamber necks.
Can I say that my results are all sub MOA's ? no I will never say that or will I say I have a MOA rifle, but man I have seen 10 holes through the paper at 200 yards tight as 1-7/16" 10 shots and a bunch of 5 shots under 2" @ 200. But they were all on a calm day and sand bags under the rifle.
Can I do this every time out ?? no I cant. We all have our good and bad days. And we all should use what we are confident in using to do our best.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:58 am

Kurt
From your testing, can you accurately say how much of the bullet bumps up into that transition?? Everything that passes it , or only the portion of the bullet that is in the transition when the fire is lit ??

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 am

No I cant.
Lets take the .45-90 I used at your Mt-1000 and the last Quigley I shot a couple other Q's that held me in good place at the end.
That reamer I had made drops a fired case out of the chamber at .474-5" outside neck dimensions.


Bryan,
when you have bullets leave the barrel going down range looking like this they will do just as good as your ability is making the bullet, load and shooting it.
IMG_3529.JPG
IMG_3176.JPG
IMG_3334.JPG
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:55 am

It's really interesting that a dual diameter bullet only bumps up the major diameter and bore dia bumps up the whole bullet..

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:22 am

Brian,

According to Kurt:

Post by Kurt » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:47 am

These three .40 caliber are hard cast and were patched to bore diameter snug. These three are not a DD bullet just straight shank. The dimple is the start of the ogive and that is where I hold the patch.
These three pretty much shows that they get most of the obturation from the initial ignition. I would think if they would show signs from inertia the dimple would at least show a sign of the impression from the patch or from the lands like you see with the softer alloys.
I would say that they are at the hardness limit of bore diameter patching to get full rotation.

I been looking for some results I have using a smokeless loads I shot with the .45-70 using bore diameter PP bullets.
Regardless what is being said that they don't obturate with smokeless is not what I have witnessed.

Kenny
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:24 am

Thanks Kenny.

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:32 am

I am amazed that someone who self admittedly never owned a 45-110, then posts pictures of 40 caliber bullets of a very hard alloy, to only further muddy the waters, and not offer anything constructive to the thread. :roll:


Kenny
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:39 am

Kenny I had a .45-3-1/4/120 that has a little more HP that the 110 has and I have seen what the bullets looked like. No muddy water in my cricks. :D
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:43 am

Well, if your interested in DD here are some. They were also very hard cast.

IMG_3567.JPG
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

bruce m
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by bruce m » Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:00 am

semtav wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:23 pm
That 7* chamber really intrigues me. Especially in light of something I think Bruce alluded to recently.
I think he maintained that the bump up that occured in the case is all that section would see.
He' ll have to correct me if i misunderstood.

But if thats the case, would a person want more of the bullet in the case so the base is more uniform farther up,
Or would that cause more gas erosion if the wad doesnt seal perfectly in the longer transition area?

The 7* lead might be a perfect candidate for a good bullet trap or Kurt's big snowpiles.
brian, not sure that i understand the question, but will try.
my dd bullets have a 7 degree transition from major to minor diameter designed in, and this goes uo against the transition/rifling when chambering the round.
this is intended to make absolutely sure the coal is the same for each round.
there is only about 1/10 to 1/8" in the case.
on firing bullet in the bore bumps up to fill the grooves, and the bit of bullet in the case bumps up just a little to fill the case, then is in fact swaged minimally o(only a thou or two) like a groove diameter bullet as it goes past the transition.
i wanted as much in the bore as possible, and only enough in the case to be able to chamber rounds.
i cannot speak of more ddpp bullet in the case than that as i have never tried it.
if i were hunting i would want more bullet in the case.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:36 am

bruce m wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:04 pm
i often wonder about finning when using a chamber for bore diameter bullets.
the base of the bullet in the case could never bump up to bigger than groove dia.
has anyone recovered bullets fired in such a chamber and observed finning, or lack thereof.?
bruce.

This is the quote I was referring to. Obviously I had the wrong vision of what the transition area of a PP chamber looks like.

Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:57 am

Yes I have with my very tight chambered .40-65, but I don't want to muddy the waters so I won't get into details.

Here is the chamber I designed for the silhouette rifle.
IMG_NEW.jpg
This is what they look like using different alloy hardness and powder loads.
IMG_3434.JPG
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

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