45-110 loads for beginners

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

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Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:14 am

Here is the final approved chamber dimensions.
IMG copy 2.jpg
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The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

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semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:22 pm

Unfortunatley that isn't helping my feeble mind Kurt.
If Bruce maintains that the part of a bullet in the case in a paperpatch chamber couldn't bump up to a larger dia than the groove, and the mouth of the case is the same dia as the bore, I'm missing a dimension somewhere.

A chamber pic like this may be need for me to understand. all we have to do is substitute dimensions and pretend the bullet is patched to bore.


If the inside of the case is approx .450, then the outside of the case and the chamber dimension at the mouth would be approx .470 ( given approx .01 case wall thickness). if the groove was .458, that means there is an area in front of the case mouth starting at .012 larger than groove dia that the bullet could bump up to. yet that is not what I get from Bruce's statement.

the base of the bullet in the case could never bump up to bigger than groove dia.



45-70_~Starline_~Lyman_4571.png
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Kurt
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kurt » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:27 pm

Brian, I thought he wanted to see bullet bases if they finned with the tight chambers.
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:30 pm

Two different thought processes going on I'm still trying to figure out Bruce's contention that that bullet wouldn't bump up anymore once I get that figured out maybe I can pretend I know something about bases

Kenny Wasserburger
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by Kenny Wasserburger » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:52 pm

Brian,

You have nailed the crux of the issue, that Jim and my self have long contend, bullet bumps up at chamber mouth is swaged down the funnel then gets another kick in the ass to bump up to groove when it hits the rifling. No thanks.... I have seen bullets fired into a pool with a 7° Chamber, lots of pictures, the bullets told the whole story, it ain’t pretty. I will keep the individual who sent the pictures private.


As I said, I understand what Brian was driving at, and Kurt you obviously didn’t, your posts just confused the whole point, ie it sure as hell muddled the waters. :roll: confused or muddied same word.

I think a bullet catch box is in order, with some honest evaluation as shot. Brian something to add for that trip in October? I Got to find that Lee Shaver article from the SS exchange, it’s been quite a few years, but I think I will definitely build one.

You know here is a ugly painful truth, at least once every 6 months or so, I get a message or email asking how to fix the person who sent the email, accuracy issues with their tight pp chamber with the 7° leade. I quite bluntly tell the truth, you can’t fix it, that super tight chamber requires a smaller diameter bullet to fit the case, that will go through 2 bump ups and a swage down in between. Most complaining about 3 MOA of vertical, how do they fix that. I tell em get it rebarreled, with a standard Shiloh chamber, and patch to bore with a fat bullet and thin paper. That will definitely fix that problem and if PP ain’t your thing you can go back to grease groove, blasphemy :lol:

I believe we have had one 7° lead rifle shoot the mile match, it certainly didn’t set anything on fire in the scorings. I believe that individual only hit the target 3 times including practice all weekend.



I am not sure if Randy Clear Crick’s 110 that Loyce shot has a 7° leade.


We measured my vertical at 1 mile with my standard chamber, on the 8/10 run, I actually hit it 1 time on sighters so 9/12. The hits from top to bottom were right at 18 inches, I let you do the math. :roll: As to the vertical. But I can assure you it’s less than 3MOA. That was with my Hell Bitch rifle 1-18 twist and a .446 Money bullet.

Brian, I haven’t a clue what your 40-82 chamber is like, but I assure you I won’t be putting a 7°leade into my new 45-100 Shiloh 1877 on order.

Oh....in a 45-110 Shiloh standard chamber, like you and Chris said just copy what I do. :lol:


Kenny Wasserburger
We'll raise up our Glasses against Evil Forces, Singing, Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses.

Wyoming Territory Sharps Shooter

bruce m
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by bruce m » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:28 am

brian,
i think the part of the bullet in the case bumps up to the internal diameter of the obturated case before the bullet moves.
bet it a bore diameter bullet in a groove diameter chamber, or an approx groove diameter bullet in a groove diameter chamber, or a bore diameter bullet in a bore diameter chamber.
what happens after that is open to conjecture.
i think bumping up can continue after this, as bore diameter bullet bases fired from bore diameter chambers seem to have rifling marks on the base section.
i think kenny's bore diameter bullets fired in his groove diameter chamber become dual diameter bullets before they start to move.
however i surmise, as i don't really know.
i am hesitant to make dual diameter bullets so hard that the bore diameter part does not bump into the rifling, and the major diameter is all that takes the rifling.
the reason for this is that the step in such a bullet will add drag.
bruce.
ventum est amicus meus

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:03 am

bruce m wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:28 am

what happens after that is open to conjecture.

bruce.
I need to go find my book by Mann, I think he covers some of that

kwilliams
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by kwilliams » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:08 am

I have been following this throat, lead, chamber discussion very closely and cannot say I fully understand the nuances, cause/effect of these dimensional differences for PP or GG. I do know this, I am re-barreling and re-chambering another both in .45 cal and I want to get the chamber cut correctly this time. Its sounds like the current Shiloh chambers work well with GG or PP...am I correct? Could some one post a chamber or reamer drawing of the current actual angles & dimensions. I really would like to have a look at it. A correct groove dia. DD PP chamber is what I want 1st and I think that leaves the door open for GG too?
best
kw

semtav
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Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:08 am

Kenny Wasserburger wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:52 pm
Brian,

You have nailed the crux of the issue, that Jim and my private.




I think a bullet catch box is in order, with some honest evaluation as shot. Brian something to add for that trip in October? I Got to find that Lee Shaver article from the SS exchange, it’s been quite a few years, but I think I will definitely build one.



Kenny Wasserburger

I was thinking the same thing but with the price of lumber right now I was thinking maybe some of that gated pipe I see scattered all over a farmers field after a windstorm.

semtav
Posts: 2208
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: 45-110 loads for beginners

Post by semtav » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:04 pm

PP chamber 1.Jpg


This would be a little clearer.

If one just reduced the 3 main dimensions, .480, .460 and .454 by .010 and tweak the deg angle you would have the 7* PP chamber believe.

Except for the length, That is the mould I got from DanT to Shoot PP bullets in my 45-90 BPCR. but also worked well in my 45 2 7.8 with the 45* transition but not as good as the elliptical bullet of same dia.
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