Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

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Coltsmoke
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by Coltsmoke »

Semtav, here is my guess, and that is all it is, a guess. The bigger pieces of paper are from the inner wrap of the two layers of paper. The little pieces of the paper at the bottom of the picture are from the outer layer of paper, I think we can all agree on that. Shooters talk about their case mouths being peened inward from cleaning, could it be that is what cuts the paper loose that wraps around the base of the bullet and causes the paper ring? Probably not, I find the small pieces of paper also and my case mouths are not peened. I have noticed on some of my loads I have a very, very small ring on the end of the case, but it is from the poly wads. I find this on the loads that use Starline brass that has shortened and now is too short for my chamber. On my loads with WW 45-70 brass that I've cut to fit my 40-65 chamber which is 2.120 in length, I don't have this problem. With the Starline brass which is now .030 short I find the small poly ring stuck to the end of the fired case.

The best way to find the exact length of your chamber is to drill out the end of a piece of brass with a hole big enough to insert a borescope. Chamber the brass and then take a look and see how it fits.
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GrumpyBear
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by GrumpyBear »

Coltsmoke thanks for that idea with the bore scope !
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Shadow 4
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by Shadow 4 »

GrumpyBear wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:31 am Coltsmoke thanks for that idea with the bore scope !
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bruce m
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by bruce m »

one wonders about paper thickness.
thin paper and thick bullet has worked for me, and because of that i have pursued that practice.
metford and others have written that paper should be the depth of the rifling or a little less for best results.
i know brent is happy with thicker paper than i use, and he gets good results.
the problem with testing for this is the expense of buying different diameter moulds, and then matching paper to those diameters.
or to put it another way, getting paper of different thicknesses that can be reliably sourced into the future and then matching moulds to that paper.
when seth cole and sewing pattern paper work well, there is little incentive to spend the money and time.
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powderburner
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by powderburner »

its probably hearacy to say it but i feel as long as the bullet fits the bore and case, patch thickness doesn't really matter as long as the alloy can grab the rifling .
I have used a 440 die bullet with three tho paper with the same results as a 442 with 2 tho and a444 with 1 tho all shot as good as I can see to shoot , I just preferrer the 442/2 tho paper as it is the least fussy in stressful conditions ,, and It wraps to right at or just under bore size ,,
I only blow tube and find personally that this combo is the smoothest for me, I have stuck a bullet occasionally with the thick and the thin patch..
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Kurt
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by Kurt »

I patch my bullets at least a halve thousands over groove depth and some of my bullets need at least .0022"paper ad I personally see no difference in performance between the thin .0013 I have to the .0022"
Heck Bill Bagwell used printer paper with some of his bullets and shot some fantastic groups at 400 yards using barrel sights.
So long as the patched bullet gets full rotation it will do it's job.
I used some of my .44 bullets and patched them for the .45 caliber like Bill did and they shot just fine. :D
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semtav
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by semtav »

Coltsmoke wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 11:23 am Semtav, here is my guess, and that is all it is, a guess. The bigger pieces of paper are from the inner wrap of the two layers of paper. The little pieces of the paper at the bottom of the picture are from the outer layer of paper, I think we can all agree on that. Shooters talk about their case mouths being peened inward from cleaning, could it be that is what cuts the paper loose that wraps around the base of the bullet and causes the paper ring? Probably not, I find the small pieces of paper also and my case mouths are not peened. I have noticed on some of my loads I have a very, very small ring on the end of the case, but it is from the poly wads. I find this on the loads that use Starline brass that has shortened and now is too short for my chamber. On my loads with WW 45-70 brass that I've cut to fit my 40-65 chamber which is 2.120 in length, I don't have this problem. With the Starline brass which is now .030 short I find the small poly ring stuck to the end of the fired case.

The best way to find the exact length of your chamber is to drill out the end of a piece of brass with a hole big enough to insert a borescope. Chamber the brass and then take a look and see how it fits.
Actually most of the little strips at the bottom of the are full patch length so it appears it is cutting tru the whole patch. I never found any of the bigger top pieces with any of the bottom still attached.

I am seating my bullet .2 in the case, with about .11 folded under so it appears they are seperating right at the fold.

Someone threw all my valuable confetti away so i will have to make new.

I don't tumble my cases anymore and still check to make sure there is no lip to tear the patch.

The brass is just a touch short just as they came with the gun, so I'll have to live with that for now.

I am going to mark my patches to i can see where the parts came from.

Thanks for the input.
semtav
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by semtav »

40-82 CONFETTI.jpg

Measured and marked my patches before and after firing.

The bigger piece is definitely the inner top wrap, like coltsmoke said
The complete thin bottom strip is almost exactly the width of the folded under piece. (.11)
The upper piece is approx .640-.680 wide.

There is approx .580 of the paper sticking out of the shell, .2 of the paper in the case and .11 folded under

Only thing I can deduce is the bottom section of the patch at the fold is completely separating from the rest.
(I'm wondering if the .060 ldpe wad is pinning the fold to the bullet and the escaping gasses are blowing the patch open when exiting the muzzle.)

I am going to have to completely color the outer layer of the top half to see if I can find any shards .580 long to see if the outer layer is separating at the case mouth also.

I could make up a story about my group, but I would probably just be bullshitting everyone, especially myself.
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powderburner
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by powderburner »

Thats what my thick patches look like. The two wraps are thicker then the rifling is deep and the inner wrap is not cut completely. The damage to it is probably coming from the muzzle when it clears and the air starts to peel it back.
You could color the base fold and that would tell
You if thats where its coming off at. I agree tjat the long strings are from the base.
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MikeT
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by MikeT »

I'm guessing that if you used a softer alloy, the bullet would bump up and cut all the way to the top of the patch [both layers].

Keep on hav'n fun!
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semtav
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by semtav »

Probably, just not sure its a critical factor.
Might check the thinner paper and see what it looks like.
Just too stubborn to switch from 12.5 -1 i guess.

Mirage was too bad to see my hits today so i just shot them all and made up why they went where they did.

Im also working with bore pigs to get used to them and see what works best for fouling control
semtav
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by semtav »

powderburner wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 5:49 pm
You could color the base fold and that would tell
You if thats where its coming off at.
Its got that wrinkled look so pretty sure. There seems to be about a tenth of an inch just above that that is totally unaccounted for.

Need to get really creative with my crayons to figure that out.
semtav
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doubles

Post by semtav »

40-82 test 5.jpg


Sure wish someone would come up with a logical explanation for loads that constantly produce doubles.
this is a consistent pattern with this load/gun.
I have an illogical one.

Just cant quite break 1 moa. 3.25 V X 4.75 H @ 300 yds
light breeze from 45-90*
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bruce m
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by bruce m »

i wonder if doubles would manifest in 10 or 20 shot groups?
is it shooter or gun/load related?
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semtav
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Re: Dual diameter 40-82 revisited

Post by semtav »

I don't know but I'm about to play with longer strings to see how the wind plays with the bullets.
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