Original style sharps bullets

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ian45662
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Original style sharps bullets

Post by ian45662 »

Is anyone shooting to old style long range bullets at long range and if so what are your thoughts? We see lots of people shooting money bullets and elliptical bullets. Whatever happened to the more nose heavy long bullets? I thought I had seen in a publication sometime that some of the original Bullets were 550 grains and 1.5” long. Is that correct? If so what twist were the original 45 cal sharps rifles using to stabilize bullets this long?
Orville
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Orville »

The twist used for those bullets was 1 in 20, and 1 in 18 to get a bullet 1.5 long and weigh 550 grains pure lead will do it. Sharps wouldn’t reveal the alloy they used. I have one of those bullets, a specific gravity test indicated it is 1-14, with a mould and swage to reproduce that bullet using 1-14 alloy it’s about 30 grain lighter then the original.
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Distant Thunder
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Distant Thunder »

Ian,

I'm not sure what good you think will come from bringing this one up again and I should know better than to jump into this because it's likely to get a bit messy. It would be good to just get some popcorn, kick back and watch, but I can't help myself.

You can shoot a bullet 1.500" long in an 18-twist, you just have to be willing to overlook the days when conditions are such that you're going to put some of them in the dirt, not all but some. The faster you can push an 1.500" long, 550 grain bullet from a 1 in 18 twist the better your chances of keeping them on paper, but recoil will also be increased.

There is nothing wrong with the original Sharps long range nose style if the OAL is within the length limits of the twist so that the bullet is well stabilized. In .45 caliber with an 18-twist that means 1.450" long or even better a bit shorter. I wouldn't even want to try it in a 1 in 20.

My .40 caliber paper patch bullet has an original Sharps style nose and it shoots very well, but the length is only 1.250" for the 1 in 18 twist in that rifle. For those who don't know, an 18-twist. 40 caliber is a pretty slow ROT.

There are a number of factors that play into making a bullet well stabilized, bullet length is just one of them. You also have consider the percentage of nose length and the nose style. Then there is velocity and of course the twist rate. It all has to do with how much mass is spinning around the axis. The more mass at the more distance from the axis and the faster it is spinning the more likely the bullet will be able to maintain stability against the forces working to destabilize it.

Those destabilizing forces are stronger when the wind is up and pushing on the nose of the bullet. Almost any bullet spun reasonably fast will remain stable in mild conditions until it gets hit on the nose by a gust of wind. Where I shoot we have mild conditions early most mornings, at least until the man says, "Your time starts now!" and then all hell breaks loose. That's when you need a bullet that has a higher level of stability because those that are rather weakly stabilized will come apart on their way to the target.

You can shoot whatever you want, but shooting a bullet that is designed to be well stabilized by the rifle you use has many benefits. Just because the ODG did it doesn't mean it was the best way to do it. If you don't believe me go ahead and give it a try and you'll see the truth in what I say. Just be sure to let us know how it goes.
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ian45662
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by ian45662 »

I sent you a message Jim.
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by mike herth »

Jim, what have you found to be the best length of a 540 grain elliptical bullet,1:16 alloy, of 45 caliber in a 1:20 ROT barrel for long range? I am considering another PP mold for my 45-110.
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Distant Thunder »

Mike,

It gets a bit more complicated than just length and or weight and I don't have any experience with the .45-110 or a 1 in 20 twist. You can get a good bit of velocity out of the 110 which will spin your bullet faster, but the 1 in 20 is on the slow side to start with. Bullets with a nose length between 40 and 45% of the OAL and with a nose tip radius of about 1/3 of caliber tend to be easier to stabilize, make for heavier bullets for their length and are better suited to resisting the aerodynamic forces that would destabilize them the transonic zone.

If you think of it purely in terms of weight I think that is getting the cart before the horse. It is much better to design a bullet with the best nose shape for flight in the transonic zone and keep the OAL slightly below the maximum length for the twist and then just let the bullet weight be what it is. That is the way I approached designing my .40 caliber bullet and it works very, very well.

I do the same thing now when I buy a mold or order a custom mold, I follow well proven design principles, keep the length at what I know will be stable and the weight is what the weight is.

We all want to shoot 550 grain bullets, but that may not be the best choice.

What kind of velocity do you get from you 110. I can give you a number to think about for length, but don't overlook nose design as part of the formula.
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by bpcr shooter »

A VERY wise man (the same man who designed and built my bullet mold) once told me, " dont worry about the weight! it doesnt matter how heavy it is if it wont hit the target every time, worry about the length". And now living by that motto, I have found in many cartridges new and old alike, that things come together much faster and with better results.

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bobw
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by bobw »

ian45662 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am Is anyone shooting to old style long range bullets at long range and if so what are your thoughts? We see lots of people shooting money bullets and elliptical bullets. Whatever happened to the more nose heavy long bullets? I thought I had seen in a publication sometime that some of the original Bullets were 550 grains and 1.5” long. Is that correct? If so what twist were the original 45 cal sharps rifles using to stabilize bullets this long?
Ian that long Creedmoor bullet also had a fairly deep cup base apprx .2" so maybe the main mass of the bullet was 1.3". How much that would effect the necessary twist rate I don't know but certainly a consideration. Most of the original Sharps bullets were blunt shaped rn and some with a meplat out of Sharps molds. Bobw
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ian45662
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by ian45662 »

Was that the point of having a cup base? Maybe not for obturation but more for the purpose of pushing that center of gravity more towards the nose of the bullet?
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Distant Thunder »

The blunt nose and cup base would move the center of mass forward and shorten the distance between the center of pressure and the center of mass.

I've seen pp bullets with very deep cup bases like Bob suggests, but how does that work with a wad?

I think I'll stay with my flat based bullets and let the young guys chase the unknown!
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by ian45662 »

That’s my hang up with them. I worry about the wad and then I guess they can be temperamental when casting. Having said that fella named Kenny White has been doing really well with his cupped base Bullets. He won’t shoot flat base and I have told him I won’t shoot cupped base :lol: maybe I will pick his brain a little on this subject. I think they might be able to offer some benefit maybe.
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by bobw »

You go back and read books from the past like Elmer Keith's " Hell I was There" and he tells of using those bullets and said they did have problems with wads sticking in the base causing flyers. Most of the questions we have today about that stuff have been answered. That's why they aren' t in use anymore. Back then a patch was put on damp to wet and it was twisted with a long pig tail the pigtail was pushed into the cupped base over to one side and then back across to the other side it filled most of the cupped base. Today we mostly Hyde patch twist and fold the end of the patch over the bullet bottom leaving the ctr open. More than a few shooters back then thought that the pig tail of the patch could cause a dent in the bullets base. All I shoot today are paperpatch bullets that have today's very shallow cup base they don't bother anything. All of KAL tool series of tgbs molds have cup bases. Accuracy potential is mostly accountable by the nut behind the butt. Bobw
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by dbm »

ian45662 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am. . . . . I thought I had seen in a publication sometime that some of the original Bullets were 550 grains and 1.5” long. Is that correct? . . . . .
Ian, I have some information on original Sharps Long Range bullets on my site.

David
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Orville
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Orville »

David I have a bullet which looks the same as what your web site shows. I had a mould and a swage made so I can make the same bullet. If I use 1-14 alloy the bullet will not weigh 550 grains or even close to it. So what were the using to harden their bullets, antimony, mercury, I know they used mercury hardened in Africa, but how they were made don’t have a clue.
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Re: Original style sharps bullets

Post by Yellowhouse »

dbm wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:09 pm
ian45662 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:30 am. . . . . I thought I had seen in a publication sometime that some of the original Bullets were 550 grains and 1.5” long. Is that correct? . . . . .
Ian, I have some information on original Sharps Long Range bullets on my site.

David
Those are bullets made by Winchester not Sharps. I presume there is a difference.
Sam
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