Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

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Kurt
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Kurt »

I have a .40-70 with a 34" barrel and I'm going to port it just for the heck of it to see what that does before I take 4" off to make silhouette weight :D.
Mike your right, it's a pain taking a 34" out of the safe. :D my 42" barrels won't even fit in the safe. They hang on the wall. :D

Personally, I feel 30" is more than enough.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

I shot a 40-82 this past week at a mid-range match. I found that after the first string fouling became a BIG issue! My barrel is a GM 1-14.5 twist, 33.75in long. it took a bore pig with 2 felts and a soaking wet patch to combat this. Even then, after the third string it wasn't enough! After the match I ran the same pig/patch combo thru and it came out black. Needless to say that barrel is on the block to get shortened 2-3in. I was using 87gr of Swiss 1.5F for powder. Were going to have to add another felt and hopefully with the shortening that solves the problem.

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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Gussy »

It's been a long time back and maybe things have changed but I had bad fouling with Swiss powder. I've used Goex ever since.

Swiss produced a hard dry fouling. Goex is softer and easier to hydrate and not been a problem.

Sometimes when your body doesn't produce enough moisture you get fouling. Experience is sometimes hard lesson. Last year's Q reminded me to drink a lot even if I wasn't really thirsty. First days practice, no fouling. Traveling I drank quite a bit and was well hydrated. During that first day practicing, I didn't drink much. Second day I had fouling and cleaned out some lead.

After that l did drink a lot. No fouling problem and no lead when cleaning.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Kurt »

When I was using a blow tube I had a bottle of water on line and I would sip a small amount and swallow it, this was enough to keep the fouling soft in a very hot barrel. Also when it was hot enough that you could smell the forearm wood I would blow a mouth full downed spit it through the tube and follow with a dry patch.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by art ruggiero »

blackpowder shooter maybe to much powder? art
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Glen Ring »

Thanks Chris
That will help a lot I think.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Kenny Wasserburger »

Chris,

I wonder who that clever fella was? :roll: :lol: :lol:

Don’t tell Ring, it will probably give him a shit hemorrhage. He would choke on the Irony.


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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Glen Ring »

Thanks Eric. I think that will help a bunch. We are doing pretty well i think, but need just a couple of more animals to be cookin! Your design ROCKS !!
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by desert deuce »

Matt from Madison wrote:

I shot a 40-82 this past week at a mid-range match. I found that after the first string fouling became a BIG issue! My barrel is a GM 1-14.5 twist, 33.75in long. it took a bore pig with 2 felts and a soaking wet patch to combat this. Even then, after the third string it wasn't enough! After the match I ran the same pig/patch combo thru and it came out black. Needless to say that barrel is on the block to get shortened 2-3in. I was using 87gr of Swiss 1.5F for powder. Were going to have to add another felt and hopefully with the shortening that solves the problem.


Do I detect a wee bit more than a hint of frustration in your post Matt? Maybe so?

Perhaps before the hacksaw goes on the tube let's think through the situation in retrospect???

First thought a 40-82 and 87 grains of 1 1/2 is a lot of extra horsepower just to punch holes in cardboard. Is that the most accurate load for that rifle? 87 grains in a 40 tube generates a lot of heat which translates into fouling accumulation and once a certain threshold is surpassed no amount of "fouling control" well save your score if you are on the clock. The only solution is stop and clean the bore thoroughly. The secret is crafting the rifle and load to the task at hand.

So, the first question is did you shoot the rifle and load under match conditions "BEFORE" taking it to the match? Let's say 14 shots 25 minutes, Four sighters and ten for score? Three times? Did the bore foul? If not then why did it foul in the match?

You implied you used some form or bore wipe, but, you did not say what liquid or chasing patch you used much less what bore wipe.

Think about this Matt..........57.5 grs 1 1/2 swiss, 45-70, 540 grain bullet consistently wins silhouette and mid range matches.
55.0 grains 1 1/2 swiss, 40-65, 396 grain bullet consistently wins silhouette and mid range matches.

BECAUSE: The shooter has determined that those are the most accurate and balanced loads for his rifle for silhouette and mid range, AND, fouling is negligible and easily controlled.

Final question: Have you determined what is the most accurate balanced load for that 40-82 when shooting midrange?
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Distant Thunder »

I'm with MikeT, my 34" barrels are a pain to get in and out of my safe and so is my 31" .40-65. That is one reason my latest rifle. .44-77, has a 30" barrel.

DD,

You need to understand that Matt is a young shooter, when compare to you and I at least, and as such he is still of the opinion that more powder is better. He will in time realize that this is not necessarily true. You only really need enough powder to get the job done, any more is just more heat and fouling which can be bad.

During the first relay of the 1000 yard match at Lodi this past weekend I was shooting my .45-70 with 83 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 under a 520 grain ppb. I always watch the muzzle of the 34" barrel as the bore wiper and following dry patch exit. I want that dry patch to be pretty clean looking. I wasn't too far into my 15 shot string when I saw that there were black streaks of fouling on the dry patch. I went to pushing the wiper through with one wet patch and then running a dry patch through. This only takes 20 to 30 seconds longer and was enough to ensure the dry patch was free of black fouling. I was also running my wipers through with both felts dripping wet. The wet patch was not quite that wet. The chamber was pretty wet but the dry patch was used to soak up the excess. I would push the dry patch into the chamber so it was just sticking out a little and give in a few seconds to soak up the oil/water mix.

With the 15 shot strings and the high temperatures my forend would be too hot to hold when I finished my string and came off the line. Those kind of conditions will challenge your fouling control and you need to adjust on the fly to the conditions by paying attention to what your rifle and the target are telling you. I am constantly looking and feeling for any sign that I need to adjust. It's not always just wipe, load and shoot.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

desert deuce wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:07 pm Matt from Madison wrote:

I shot a 40-82 this past week at a mid-range match. I found that after the first string fouling became a BIG issue! My barrel is a GM 1-14.5 twist, 33.75in long. it took a bore pig with 2 felts and a soaking wet patch to combat this. Even then, after the third string it wasn't enough! After the match I ran the same pig/patch combo thru and it came out black. Needless to say that barrel is on the block to get shortened 2-3in. I was using 87gr of Swiss 1.5F for powder. Were going to have to add another felt and hopefully with the shortening that solves the problem.


Do I detect a wee bit more than a hint of frustration in your post Matt? Maybe so?

Perhaps before the hacksaw goes on the tube let's think through the situation in retrospect???

First thought a 40-82 and 87 grains of 1 1/2 is a lot of extra horsepower just to punch holes in cardboard. Is that the most accurate load for that rifle? 87 grains in a 40 tube generates a lot of heat which translates into fouling accumulation and once a certain threshold is surpassed no amount of "fouling control" well save your score if you are on the clock. The only solution is stop and clean the bore thoroughly. The secret is crafting the rifle and load to the task at hand.

So, the first question is did you shoot the rifle and load under match conditions "BEFORE" taking it to the match? Let's say 14 shots 25 minutes, Four sighters and ten for score? Three times? Did the bore foul? If not then why did it foul in the match?

You implied you used some form or bore wipe, but, you did not say what liquid or chasing patch you used much less what bore wipe.

Think about this Matt..........57.5 grs 1 1/2 swiss, 45-70, 540 grain bullet consistently wins silhouette and mid range matches.
55.0 grains 1 1/2 swiss, 40-65, 396 grain bullet consistently wins silhouette and mid range matches.

BECAUSE: The shooter has determined that those are the most accurate and balanced loads for his rifle for silhouette and mid range, AND, fouling is negligible and easily controlled.

Final question: Have you determined what is the most accurate balanced load for that 40-82 when shooting midrange?

Frustration....YES, but only because I didnt do my part and check that the barrel was getting clean. This is my fathers rifle and I have never really shot it at a match, he did but it was earlier in the year. At that point it did fine with the 10-1 oil-water and bore pigs (2 felts). For me to change the load I would have to dump the DDPP bullet that was designed for it, thats not happening. So I must deal with the fouling and figure it out, if its shortening the barrel, so be it. It doesnt need to be 34in long anyway. Of course that will be the last ditch option, I did find that a wet patch behind the bore pig did ok until the last relay, so mabye adding another felt and, when its hot use the wet patch/bore pig combo.

The most accurate load for midrange is the one im shooting. I refuse to accept that I need to shoot a GG bullet, and use less powder. I just need to figure out what combo and when. Like I said , its just ME that was the problem. and stating that if you choose to use a 34in barrel and chamber it in a 40-82, you may have powder fouling issues. I do know its overkill for mid-range, it was made as a light shooting 1k yd rifle, not for mid-range, but my father is having eye trouble right now, so I took it as I dont have a smaller caliber to shoot at those distances. All in all....I learned something and I'm sure I will continue to learn, I took this match and logged the info, next time WILL be different.

I am currently waiting for a mold for a 40-70SS and the next rifle will be a 40-65. So I may never use it again, or take what I learned and run with it.....I dont know, yet.

I do know that a 45-70 will do just fine, I just like being different, as in not having the same as everyone else. yes I know there is more to shooting than the caliber. That is why I took my 45-70 and made it into a 45-100, not because it uses more powder, but because its different and you dont see them on the line very often. I have that one figured out and after 15 shot strings I can keep it clean with one pass. Being that i'm only 40yrs old, I have plenty of time to play with all the of them and figure them out. Maybe when I get "old" I can go back and bring out the 45-70, 40-82, 44-70, etc and play with lighter recoiling rifles.

And jim is 100% correct...it not always just wipe, load and shoot. And that is where I failed, thinking that at the spring shoot it did so well and would be ok. I was wrong!


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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Distant Thunder »

Matt,

You're not the only one that forgets from time to time that there are a lot of things to keep an eye on when we're shooting. I've done it many times too. I think my recent efforts with my .44-77 have made me more aware of and inclined to watch my fouling management more closely.

Last year at this match I was totally caught off guard by the fouling and did not deal with it well at all. That was pure frustration and the lessons of fouling management were learned once again. The best you can do is be aware of the potential problems and have a plan in place to deal with them and the necessary paraphernalia on hand if the problem comes up.

A list of the things that can go wrong in BPTR would be long indeed!
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

Jim,

Absolutely!! Its all part o the game! Ive only been doing this comp thing for a few years and Im learning every time I go. Its all thanks to guys like you who take the time to explain things when times get tough. I hope that someday, I too am able to help the next "noob" in this shooting sport. I try and be aware cause of the "murphy's law"" thing but, when its hotter than heck, and your having issues, sometimes I think its me, and not my rifle.

It all comes with time behind the sights, and the good people on here who help!!!


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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by gunlaker »

Matt, here is a trick someone showed me in Phoenix several years ago. I was shooting a .45-90 with paper patched bullets and having a hard time. 32" barrel for what it's worth. I had serious problems where I was getting a bunch of vertical near the end of a string. Patches were coming out clean as I pushed them through.

When I got back to the hotel I pushed some really tight dry patches through the bore. The first ones looked pretty clean and then they started coming out black! The fouling had formed a really hard layer that regular wet patches didn't touch.

The solution given to me, and I use it every time I wipe now, is this:

1. insert the first wet patch and run it up just past the end of the chamber. This is where most fouling problems actually occur.
2. while the wet patch is sitting there ahead of the chamber, go get another wet patch ready. The extra soaking time helps.
3. push the first patch all the way through and then repeat the process again until you are happy with the bore condition.

Sometimes you will get what looks like a clean patch coming out, but maybe the last two shots in your string have been a minute low. Try adding one more patch per shot when this happens. Often this will get the vertical back where it needs to be.

You do have a tougher time with lots of powder in a smaller bore though. The smaller the bore the more easily it fouls in general. That became apparent to me once I started shooting black powder in .32-40's benchrest.

Good luck to you.

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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

Chris,

I will give that a shot, if I cant get the bore pigs to work. I will try one more felt (3 total), as its works well in my 45-100. I my have to go back to the wet patch thing with that rifle.


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