Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

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Don McDowell
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Don McDowell »

Or just run 2 bore pigs back to back
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Kurt
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by Kurt »

Matt,

I don't think with a high capacity case in the .38 or .40 calibers that is all a powder fouling problem. I think one can push that small light lead bullet to hard to turn it into a squirly wanderer when barrels get hot.
I see this with my .44-90BN I can cram 115 gr of powder in and the faster twist of 1/16 will start opening the groups faster than the 1/19 twist.
I read guys with the larger capacity .38 calibers having a issue with verticals and usually the shorter .38-55 doing well.
I have looked at a lot of PP bullets, especially the .44's getting shot in the 19 and 17 twist .44-77 and the others .44-100, .44-90 BN with 17 and 16 twist when they get pushed hard. But fouling build up is not good.
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martinibelgian
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by martinibelgian »

Just look at the powder to bullet weight ratio, the heavier the bullet for a given amount of powder, the easier it will be to manage fouling. And of course, bore size also plays a big role. Fouling management is as much art as science...
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desert deuce
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by desert deuce »

Matt, in the spirit of being helpful I replied to your post and I think most of us have been where you just were with the fouling situation. Even DT mentioned he visited this last year at Lodi and he is 40 plus and certainly an experienced Lodi shooter.

The point I apparently failed to make in my latest response to you was the benefits of determining a "BALANCED LOAD" for a rifle. Matter of fact I even wrote an article in Black Powder Cartridge News with that title. The idea behind a balanced load is obtaining optimum performance from rifle and load for a given purpose. A common variable that makes a balanced load elusive is changing environmental conditions. The critical element then is the shooter because the rifle and load cannot adjust to the conditions, it is up to the rifleman to do that.

Looking back over many years of burning charcoal in a rifle barrel I think the ability to determine a balanced load is the most useful technique that I have learned and the shooter is the base element in the equation. The next is paying attention to what the rifle is telling you during a string of record fire, but the balanced load comes first.

For instance, I am going to the range tomorrow purposely to shoot in 105+ degree medium to decreasing humidity simply to determine how my rifle and loads work best in those conditions and listen to what the rifle tells me as I go through about 50 rounds in those conditions. My goal is to find out what I have to do as the shooter to control barrel fouling sufficiently to minimize and hopefully prevent accuracy destroying hard fouling, which is a lot better way than finding out my fouling control is insufficient in a match.

My primary instruments will be a hygrometer/thermometer and a notebook.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

DD,

This was the first time shooting in such weather, so I guess to answer your question, I dont have a balanced load...yet. I know the load I have shoots well, very good in fact. I will try and get it figured out this weekend or next like you are doing this weekend in the hot temps. When did you write that article?? or could you send it to me please?? I would love to read it....

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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by GrumpyBear »

bpcr shooter wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:46 am DD,

This was the first time shooting in such weather, so I guess to answer your question, I dont have a balanced load...yet. I know the load I have shoots well, very good in fact. I will try and get it figured out this weekend or next like you are doing this weekend in the hot temps. When did you write that article?? or could you send it to me please?? I would love to read it....

matt
Ditto here !
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by 50gunner »

I have a 32" barreled 15 pound 22 twist 50-90, fouling from 120-130gr Swiss FG feels the same all along the bore when patching clean, it fires 720gr paper patch bullets from a KAL mould, the only target type Sharps rifle have, it wears a Hoke tang sight and Distant Thunder front, a beautiful beast i managed to fire 6 rounds into 10 inches on my 700 yard gong, maybe it's the 50 cal bore giving more room for the fouling to spread more evenly, i do use a 0.200" Black Magic lube cookie, always a nice lube star visible on the muzzle.
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desert deuce
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by desert deuce »

Today I intentionally went late to the range in Tucson so the temperatures would pass 100 degrees F. And they did after a short wait.

I toyed with a couple of things but primarily I was paying close attention to internal barrel fouling. Baco bore wipes of course.

Since I was shooting a silhouette/mid range rifle (32" 1-18 twist Badger) I had two sets of trial loads, 16 rounds each. Plus a few left overs as sighters. My targets were 5.5" circles spray painted on tag board at 200 yards distance. I have found that if a load shoots well on paper it usually does just fine on steel. Since fouling adversely affects vertical first, I made no sight adjustments, just fired strings of five on different targets and checked which load had the least verticle. One load had about half minute vertical. The other close to zero.

The first load was Paul Jones Creedmoor 45001 cast 1-30 Monikowski Lube. 58 grains 1 1/2 Swiss, RP large pistol primer, comp .080"
Barrel got really hot, noticeably less mpro7 spitting out the muzzle than usual and felts really dirty, chased with 2.25" cotton patch damp with 1-5 NAPA water soluble oil patch coming out clean. Swab chamber. Shoot again.

Second Load Baco 458540E3 cast 1-16 Monikowski Lube, 64 grains 1 1/2 Swiss, RP large pistol primer, comp. .140", same wiping regimen as above. Barrel really hot also. Almost zero vertical.

Cleaned rifle immediately after each 16 shot string, no fouling and no leading, one Hoppe's patch run through twice did the trick.

Hygrometer/Thermometer read 108F/19% Humidity in the shade at barrel level. 115F in the ambient. Time to try these in a match.

BELOW IS A LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT A BALANCED LOAD.



The Concept of a Balanced Load
By
Zack Taylor
Rio Rico, Arizona

This article is solely about developing a load for shooting Long Range Black Powder Target Rifle Competition under NRA rules at 800, 900 & 1,000 yards on a paper target with a ten inch diameter X-Ring, and is a companion article to loading the 45-90 for long range competition. That technique will get you in the ball park. The idea of a balanced load is specifically the ability of the completed cartridge used for this competition, in any one rifle, to provide maximum accuracy over the range of conditions present during a match, and is determined by the performance on the target. What may work best in one rifle may or may not work best in another quite similar rifle. The two major variables are the ability of the individual shooter and the characteristics of the rifle. A balanced load must be compatible with these two variables. Too much recoil tires the shooter at least, and induces a flinch at worst. Too much powder causes a faster build up of internal barrel heat and promotes hard fouling, which is very detrimental to long range accuracy. Too little powder delivers an unstable bullet at the target under more difficult conditions. The ideal balanced load will perform at optimum accuracy potential for a specific rifle/shooter combination through a range of shooter, rifle and environmental conditions that occur during the firing of a match.

The rest of this article is about what has worked for me in developing a balanced load for rifles chambered for the 45-90 cartridge with barrels of 16, 17 & 18 twist, with bullets cast 1-16 alloy between 525 & 540 grains weight. Experience indicates bullets that arrive at the target stable under “most” environmental conditions usually leave the barrel between 1300-1330 feet per second and are between 1.42” and 1.46” in length as cast, with extreme velocity spreads (ES) in the single digits. The best bullet lubes stay on the bullet and in the lube grooves until the round is chambered. The holy grail in long range loads are loads that hold a minimum vertical dispersion on target at 1,000 yards. Loads that shoot well at 500-600 yards do not always shoot well beyond that distance. Moreover, what a load does under ideal conditions is not always an indication of what it will do under less than ideal conditions.

The environmental conditions are controlling variables. Long range is fired in the open over a period of many hours. That means the rifle, ammo and shooter are subject to variable exposure elements. A significant factor is that the conditions at the barrel can be quite different than the National Weather Service is reporting. Solar heating of the ground (and your barrel) will cause the temperature to be higher, and relative humidity lower, than what is present 5 feet above ground level. I call this radiant temperature. I mount a digital hygrometer/thermometer on my cross sticks in the open at barrel level. Once the radiant temperature at barrel level reaches 88 F, and relative humidity drops below 30%, the conditions will accelerate the formation of hard fouling in the barrel. The secret to shooting well is controlling the hard fouling inside the barrel regardless of the combined environmental conditions. The radiant temperature can be forty degrees or more higher than the ambient and the humidity at barrel level can be anywhere from 8-20% lower at barrel level than in the ambient. What is important is the conditions at barrel level and on your ammo container. At least keep the ammo out of direct sunlight with lid closed and covered with a cloth or shaded and covered in the shot blocks. Radiant temperatures above 110 F and humidity in single digits is not uncommon in Arizona or New Mexico.

When shooting a match where each match is fifteen shots for record a competitor may fire six or more sighting shots before going for record. It is in these matches that the importance of preventing the formation of hard fouling in the bore becomes more challenging especially in the last four inches of the barrel. If wiping with patches this may take four or more wet patches between each shot before the next record shot is fired. The hotter the internal temperatures are inside the barrel and the lower the humidity the faster the fluid on the patch will evaporate as the patch moves down the barrel and frequently does not clear enough fouling in the last four inches of barrel. I have seen the fourth wet patch after a shot steaming and toasted upon leaving the muzzle, from a barrel you cannot hold in your hand it is so hot. It is in these conditions long range matches are fired and the fouling control must work and the balanced load pays huge dividends. I don’t know if there is such a thing as too much fouling control.

Using Buffalo Arms Bore Wipes with MPro7 cleaner is one method of fouling control. When using them I notice that as the bore wipe exits the muzzle it “spits” quite a bit of excess fluid out ahead of the bore wipe which means the fluid is present in quantity for the last four inches of barrel in a thirty-four inch barrel. If the barrel is very hot when the residue of the bore fluid drips from the muzzle and begins to run down the underside of the barrel that liquid will almost instantly evaporate leaving a hard crust on the outside of the barrel yet the bore is clear of hard fouling. I have used these Bore Wipes in conditions up to 131 degrees radiant temperature. So far, one or two patches of Hoppes is all it takes to clean the bore when there was no cleaning between relays.

The good news is that developing a balanced load for you in your rifle has never been easier. The bad news is that you are the one that has to do the load development and shooting under match conditions. Just remember, the wind is your friend. Don’t just practice only under favorable conditions, because you probably won’t have favorable conditions throughout every match.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by semtav »

desert deuce wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:49 pm Today I intentionally went late to the range in Tucson so the temperatures would pass 100 degrees F. And they did after a short wait.

I had good intentions of trying that this summer with all the 100+ days we had, but I found out that I start melting at 90 so it didn't get done.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by desert deuce »

Reminding the readership here that the above article was for long range. The overall concepts are the same for silhouette and midrange.

For midrange and silhouette you do not need near the initial muzzle velocity that is recommended for long range. A 540 grain .45 cal bullet lumbering along at 1150 fps or so knocks down a ram (if you hit it) just fine.

The real test is group size and vert at 600 yards on paper or steel. Accuracy is important as in if you don't hit the animal in all liklihood it is not going to leave the rail.

And a load that groups just fine at 200 meters may not be so tight as necessary at 500 meters. Only way to find out is shoot it at 500 meters. AND in doing so enhances the mental aspect in the approach to competition by building confidence in the rifle, load and the shooters ability to perform well.
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desert deuce
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by desert deuce »

With a view of one day warmer temperatures may be with us again, does anyone need to reread this thread post.
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semtav
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by semtav »

bpcr shooter wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:13 pm I shot a 40-82 this past week at a mid-range match. I found that after the first string fouling became a BIG issue! My barrel is a GM 1-14.5 twist, 33.75in long. it took a bore pig with 2 felts and a soaking wet patch to combat this. Even then, after the third string it wasn't enough! After the match I ran the same pig/patch combo thru and it came out black. Needless to say that barrel is on the block to get shortened 2-3in. I was using 87gr of Swiss 1.5F for powder. Were going to have to add another felt and hopefully with the shortening that solves the problem.

matt
Matt
Any updates on the 40-82?
I was gonna start up the 40-82 thread again to see how you were coming with it the other day. But after seeing how many participants aren't with us anymore, I didn't want to jinx anyone.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

[/quote]

Matt
Any updates on the 40-82?
I was gonna start up the 40-82 thread again to see how you were coming with it the other day. But after seeing how many participants aren't with us anymore, I didn't want to jinx anyone.
[/quote]

So, to cure the fouling issues, I ended up buying brushes from Brownells then putting 2 felts up front and one in back, then the neoprene washer. Other than that, I had a friend shoot it at a mid-range match last year and he took 2nd. He had never fired the rifle before in his life and he lost it on the offhand.....so I feel we have a really good rifle now. As for shooting 1k yards, I feel you would have to pick your days, as the wind can really push these little bullets. Im starting to feel like its a really good ctg out to 800 maybe 900.

The 87-89gr of 1.5f with a .060poly wad, Fed210m and a DDPP bullet will just drive tacks. I feel that that load is "balanced" and it doesnt seem to matter where I shoot it, as long as " I " do my part with fouling, it just works.

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semtav
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by semtav »

That's good to hear. I haven't shot mine since last may but the DDPP was looking real good with 83 gr when I quit. But I've only got 30" barrel.
Gonna start back up with it as soon as I get back to work.
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Re: Long barrels and fouling near the muzzle.

Post by bpcr shooter »

Yeah, It is!!

After some thinking, the 87ish grains is the same as a 45-90 but, were shooting it out of a smaller hole, so fouling will/should be worse. With the 34in barrel its makes it really bad, I just didnt get that barrel hot enough during testing to see this. Dad did get some MPro7 and I'd like to try it out just to see if there is any improvement over the water/oil mix, so far its working really well in his 44-70, but as if now I think I have her figured out for Wi weather :lol:
Dad and I have tossed the idea of cutting the barrel 2in shorter but I'd hate to mess up a really good shooting gun.......

Im now working on my 45-90 and a 40-70 and possibly a 45-70 for the wife...


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