How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

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ScrapMetal
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by ScrapMetal »

I'll quote some of what I've read in Tom Rowe's book (great book if you are interested in Hepburns):
This is one of the very rare Hepburn models and was only made during the E. Remington & Sons period and then in a most limited way. I show one example, serial number 223, that must have been made well before 1885 and may have been the first one produced. The barrel on this rifle is fully round: later examples are round with a flat section on both sides, just in front of the breech. The catalog listed the barrel length as 32", but all that I have seen are 34". All that I have discovered, I believe, are chambered for the .44-2 6/10" but as the barrel marking is covered by the stock, and the mark is difficult to access, this may be incorrect. The catalog states that there is a special form of rifling. I have not noticed a difference from the found in Creedmoor rifles.

...

This rifle was designed as an American version of the British Military Creedmoor. The MBL (Military Breech Loader) was a rifle style that saw considerable success in England for military style matches. The British rules stated that the trigger pull had to be 6 pounds, be fitted with military sights, and cound not weigh over 10 pounds. the rifle had to be fired without cleaning between shots.

...

It was used in some International competitions which were reported in Shooting & Fishing and undoubtedly in other places. This was a sport with very limited participation for the general run of target shooters.
As promised, I found my Hepburn photos and "internet-sized them". They are kind of lousy photos (see a pattern here?) and it looks much better in person.

Image

As far as the rifling goes I count 6 lands/grooves.

Image

I don't remember seeing those markings under the barrel but will pull the stock and check again. I'll let you know what I find.

Image

The more intriguing markings are on the side of the barrel where it is stamped, "L N Walker", who I believe was the head gunsmith at Remington at this time. I don't know if all of them are stamped with his name or if this was his personal gun.

Image

Here is a link that contains these pics as well as other misc. detailed pics:

http://www.arcaneiron.com/firearms/remington/hepburn/

Well, that's about all I know about this rifle, and maybe a little more. :)

Best regards,

-Ron
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desert deuce
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by desert deuce »

Thank you for sharing.

Sure looks like the ten land and groove rifling. I sent the link to Tom Rowe this morning.
Certainly a chamber cast (which requires a bit aplomb) should tell the rest of the story. In great condition for its age.

By the way, Douglas Barrels may still make the ten land and groove .45 caliber barrels on special order. Know a shooter that has one of the Douglas Premium Air Gauged ten land and groove barrels (stainless) on a long range rifle and he says it shoots really well.
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ScrapMetal
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by ScrapMetal »

If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the 5 land/groove barrel? Off hand, I would think the symmetry of a 6 land/groove would be more conducive to accuracy.

I'll keep them in mind for a couple of rifle builds I'm planning on. I have castings for Hepburn and a Borchardt that I'll hopefully start on this winter. I thought about building a Sharps but decided to get another Shiloh instead.

Oh, and I do have another question on the Hepburn. In this picture there are three screws on the top of the barrel. I initially thought that they may be for moving the rear sight up on the barrel but the hole pattern was just a bit too long for that. Any ideas what they are for exactly?

Image

Thanks for the help (and patience with me)

-Ron
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desert deuce
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by desert deuce »

I saw those three screws myself Ron, have no idea what they are for or why they are there.

As for why barrels have different numbers of varying sized and depth lands and grooves I don't know for sure.

Guessing it may have something to do with barrel fouling would only be a guess.
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ScrapMetal
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by ScrapMetal »

Fair enough. At least I'm not the only one that thinks it's "odd" then. It may take a day or two but I'll post back with a pic when I pull the front stock off.

Thanks again DD and everyone else answered my questions,

-Ron
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

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ScrapMetal wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 am If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the 5 land/groove barrel? Off hand, I would think the symmetry of a 6 land/groove would be more conducive to accuracy.
-Ron
Read once upon a time (believe it was on the Bartlein website talking about their 5R rifling - but was years ago, so my memory could be bad on where) that having 5-grooves placed a groove opposite a land and resulted in less bullet distortion when fired. The info was presented in a "some people think......" format, so the website was not pimping 5R rifling using it. Only offering as a possible explanation. That said, my 6.5x47L Bartlein F-Class rifle with their 5R rifling was as accurate as any I've owned. I'll have to check my 38-40 Rem-Hepburn barrel. It might also be 5R.

We have certainly achieved "thread drift" with all this.
Glenn
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desert deuce
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by desert deuce »

Thread Drift? Is that a category or a classification?
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ScrapMetal
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by ScrapMetal »

SSShooter wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:29 am
ScrapMetal wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:23 am If I may ask, what was the reasoning behind the 5 land/groove barrel? Off hand, I would think the symmetry of a 6 land/groove would be more conducive to accuracy.
-Ron
Read once upon a time (believe it was on the Bartlein website talking about their 5R rifling - but was years ago, so my memory could be bad on where) that having 5-grooves placed a groove opposite a land and resulted in less bullet distortion when fired. The info was presented in a "some people think......" format, so the website was not pimping 5R rifling using it. Only offering as a possible explanation. That said, my 6.5x47L Bartlein F-Class rifle with their 5R rifling was as accurate as any I've owned. I'll have to check my 38-40 Rem-Hepburn barrel. It might also be 5R.

We have certainly achieved "thread drift" with all this.
That's an interesting supposition. I wonder what kind of comparative test they did and if it proved itself out, why all guns produced from then on weren't given to using the 5R rifling?
desert deuce wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:43 pm Thread Drift? Is that a category or a classification?
Thread drift? Is that anything like wind drift and do we need a gauge for that??? :wink:

In the original spirit of this thread I'd like to report that I just put in an order for a Pelican case. :mrgreen:

Thanks guys,

-Ron
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by martinibelgian »

All period Brit rifling had an odd no. of grooves for that very reason, a land opposite a groove was supposed to give less bullet deformation.
SSShooter
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by SSShooter »

ScrapMetal wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:04 amThat's an interesting supposition. I wonder what kind of comparative test they did and if it proved itself out, why all guns produced from then on weren't given to using the 5R rifling?
-Ron
Bartlein (and Kreiger) both offer as an option in their barrels. It is not only the number of grooves it also the groove profile which is different.
Shilen offers their "Rachet rifled" 22rimfire barrel, which has a different groove profile, though only four (4) of them rather than five (5). My experience with the Shilen barrel is very positive and is my first choice for 22LR.
Glenn
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desert deuce
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by desert deuce »

Ron, received a reply email from Tom Rowe this afternoon. Tom says every #3 Military Rifle he has 'seen' was chambered 44-100. He did not mention barrel twist.

So, about that strap on shoulder recoil pad idea. :shock: Do you know what a rubberized mouthpiece is? :? With an efficient powder trickling technique you may find it easy to exceed 100 grains for case capacity and for target and accuracy you will only need about 85% of that with 2F Swiss, still not a wimpy load in a relatively light rifle. :wink:

I full length Starline 45 2.6 Brass into 44-100, I have the dies to do that, but, best to fireform the reformed 44-100 brass before loading it up. I use corn meal to fireform before annealing the mouth of the case then load upwards.
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ScrapMetal
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by ScrapMetal »

SSShooter wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:01 am
ScrapMetal wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:04 amThat's an interesting supposition. I wonder what kind of comparative test they did and if it proved itself out, why all guns produced from then on weren't given to using the 5R rifling?
-Ron
Bartlein (and Kreiger) both offer as an option in their barrels. It is not only the number of grooves it also the groove profile which is different.
Shilen offers their "Rachet rifled" 22rimfire barrel, which has a different groove profile, though only four (4) of them rather than five (5). My experience with the Shilen barrel is very positive and is my first choice for 22LR.
Thanks SSShooter, very interesting.
desert deuce wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:01 pm Ron, received a reply email from Tom Rowe this afternoon. Tom says every #3 Military Rifle he has 'seen' was chambered 44-100. He did not mention barrel twist.

So, about that strap on shoulder recoil pad idea. :shock: Do you know what a rubberized mouthpiece is? :? With an efficient powder trickling technique you may find it easy to exceed 100 grains for case capacity and for target and accuracy you will only need about 85% of that with 2F Swiss, still not a wimpy load in a relatively light rifle. :wink:

I full length Starline 45 2.6 Brass into 44-100, I have the dies to do that, but, best to fireform the reformed 44-100 brass before loading it up. I use corn meal to fireform before annealing the mouth of the case then load upwards.
Hmmm, thanks for the warning about recoil. Although I am no stranger to stout recoil, I'll make sure I have some extra gear handy. My wife likes to remind me that I'm not getting any younger. :roll:

I will have to read up on fireforming brass with corn meal as I've seen reference to it before but I've never looked at the details of it. I do, at least, understand annealing so I've got that going for me. :wink: You did kind of lose me at "then load upwards".

I removed the stock hoping to get more information on the rifle. Unfortunately the only marking on the underside of the barrel was the gun's serial number which, by the way, also matched the serial number on the stock. So no caliber/cartridge info anywhere on the rifle.

Thanks,

-Ron
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desert deuce
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by desert deuce »

Yes, yes, I see....apparently your wife and mine took the same course on reminding husbands about the residual effects of having birthdays. :roll:
However, with that said, I do not recommend reversing the commentary. There are just some things you learn with the passage of time. :shock: What may be viewed as good for the Gander is seldom good for the Goose. Another steep learning curve. :?

Full length sizing 45 brass down to 44 may change case capacity and overall case length. Fire forming with cornmeal you can ignore case length and case capacity until after fireforming. Then after fireforming trim to 2.6" or whatever your chamber cast indicates. A bit short doesn't matter at this point.

Fireforming sized down brass: Any primer seated, add 8 grains Unique or Hodgdon Clays (you don't need that much powder for the shorter cases), large bowl of cornmeal, hold empty case over bowl of cornmeal and spoon in cornmeal case upright, tamp down with wooden dowel, keep adding cornmeal and tamping down until about 1/8 inch from mouth of case, add wad and compress further. Store upright, take to range upright, load into rifle tilted up, fire with back to wind at least 45 degrees elevated. Wah, lah, you have the cornmeal fireformed case.

You may find the case shorter than before fireforming, but, you are closer to true case capacity with the fireformed case now. More when you get to this point.

Then we arrive at the 64 thousand dollar question before determining load. "What do you plan to do with this rifle?" Such as plinking or serious competition when rifle twist, bullet length, powder charge become issues.
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kenny sd
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

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Shiloh buffalo leather hinged slip on cover. Qugley style; I gotta be me. or Tom Seleck, or someone....Ken
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kenny sd
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Re: How do you tranport your rifles to the range?

Post by kenny sd »

Shiloh buffalo leather hinged slip on cover. Qugley style; I gotta be me. or Tom Seleck, or someone....Ken
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