16-1, 20-1

Discussions of powders, bullets and loading information.

Moderators: Kirk, Lucinda

Post Reply
User avatar
JonnyV
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:52 pm
Location: Living in a van down by the river eatin’ Govt cheese
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

C'mon now I clearly said I was not going to be running a 600 gr bullet :lol: now, if I found a mold somewhere on the cheap I might drill up a dozen or so just to see what happens, but I would not be putting any serious effort behind that. Also, I will not be going to a 7" or 9" twist barrel with a 45 shooting cast bullets. I only mentioned that as an example of an overall larger trend in rifle shooting, which is going with faster twists in order to stabilize longer bullets.

I also fully get that a lot of the things F1 and LRP guys do doesn't necessarily translate to what we're doing here, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing to learn from those disciplines. On the contrary, there's a lot to learn out there that can be modified and used for BP shooting.

That trend was alive and well on this forum before I ever ordered up my Shiloh as well (which will be a 16" twist BTW). The CPA rifle I have on the way (with the 15" twist) is something that I ran into by chance. I had been searching for a Shiloh to buy and was having trouble. A member of another forum suggested I look at getting a CPA as a way to put hands on a rifle in less time. They offer an 18" twist or a 15" twist on their standard barrels (Douglass XX). I went with the 15". If I get it and then experience "skidding" of my bullets across the lands, then we'll know it was too fast of a twist, right?

I'm trying to start off with the best equipment I can, so that I don't end up ordering another rifle a couple years down the road. Getting the order right is a big deal for me, I get my money the hard way (drywalling). The three Italian rifles I have right now all run 18" twist barrels, and they've helped me get a start, but the future rests with a more refined tool, better suited to what I'm trying to do (silhouette and gong currently, maybe targets someday)....Just got a new mold in from Brooks to use with them, 1.42"(based on recommendation from members here) new Postell type with first two bands reduced. Hoping to cast up 50 each 20-1 and 16-1 today to try out and run a 20 round ladder test with each.

DD...I have no problem getting advice or criticism either. I'm here to learn. You'll have to work a lot harder if you're looking to hurt my feelings.
User avatar
JonnyV
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:52 pm
Location: Living in a van down by the river eatin’ Govt cheese
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

Don McDowell wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:59 am Anybody know anyone with a Ruger #1 chambered in 458 lott, and has a spirit of adventure?

There's a No.1 in 416 Rigby down at Fall City Firearms in Fall City, WA. Fascinating to look at but I bet it's like standing behind a pissed off mule!
semtav
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by semtav »

Johnny
If you are serious about going that way and trying a heavy bullet, I might have just the mould for you to try. Will post pics when I get home today.
User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 7633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Don McDowell »

Jonny your 15 twist barrel might just work pretty well with grease groove bullets weighing 535-550, at silhouette distances in the 45-70, but going out past 600 yards due to the lower velocity of the 2.1 case, it might be better served in the 2.4 or longer cartridges.
There's only one way to see what the hairy chested naked woman at the carnival looks like, buy the ticket and go in a have a look see. :D
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
User avatar
JonnyV
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:52 pm
Location: Living in a van down by the river eatin’ Govt cheese
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

I just happen to have a BACO 545 sitting here waiting on that rifle....hoping it will work with the 45-2.6 Shiloh when it gets here too. I was talking some of this through with Lucinda when I ordered and she said that her rifle was set up like that, so I'm hoping it will work. At least that's what I remember, she was very busy at the time and I didn't want to keep her on the phone.
User avatar
Don McDowell
Posts: 7633
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Ft. Laramie Wy
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Don McDowell »

Lucinda knows her way around a rifle for sure
AKA Donny Ray Rockslinger :?
semtav
Posts: 2875
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by semtav »

Rowels 570 gr.jpg


570 gr Rowels bullet

probably wouldn't leave much room for powder.
Better suited for a 45-100 or 110.
I'd try it in my 16 twist 45-110's but 'd hate to ruin a good gun shooting that greasy stuff !!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
JonnyV
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:52 pm
Location: Living in a van down by the river eatin’ Govt cheese
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

Wow! I'll keep it in mind Semtav LOL.....
User avatar
desert deuce
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by desert deuce »

Martini Belgian: Right, increasing twist rate from 16:1 to 15:1 is so much more... That same argument probably was also used
when the 1st 18:1 barrel was introduced. And now we're already at 16:1.

Because I suspect that there is at least a remnant population of serious shooters that wander on to this site occasionally the advent of the sweet sixteen twist marriage to the 16-1 alloy move had a contemporary reason dating back to the past century. I think the story may have gone something like this.

Many long range shooters were happy as a herd of pigs that have rooted under a gate and escaped to the corn patch shooting Paul Jones Creedmoor, Steve Brooks Creedmoor and Saeco #745 bullets cast 1-20 for the longer distances and in particular long range bpcr target. Oh it was a happy lot, happy that is until one noted experimenter mentioned the term, "Money bullet". The results of such experiments lead to different modifications in bullet design which in turn suggested harder alloys and tighter than 18 twist barrels. Next up was 16 twist barrels, 16-1 alloy and different bullet lubes.

So when the opportunity arose a chamber reamer designed for an acquired 16 twist barrel by said intrepid experimenter specifically for this phantom $$ bullet was commissioned based on those observed successes. Wah lah. After about a year of tinkering with this new concept rifle combo I by pure luck, no skill at all involved, shot a clean 100-6x one day in practice from 1,000 yards. Oh, that felt pretty reassuring. Next came a 95-4x at 900 yards in the Creedmoor Cup at Ben Avery. (20% of the record shots that day were X's.) Hey, there must be something to this combo. 8)

Strange as it may sound, I also noticed that the core groups at the long range distances were tighter (translation, bullet holes were closer together, less spread out). I mean, who in the world pays any attention to accuracy and what the target is saying anyway? :roll:

BTW, I didn't see much difference in the way the 16 twist/16-1 alloy shot the traditional Creedmoor Designs. The difference was between the way those designs grouped and the way money bullet grouped that precipitated the transition.

So why did I forsake 1-20 alloy and 18 twist barrels for shooting long range? Simple, because of the results the intrepid experimenter was achieving of course and when those results worked for me I stayed with the newer concept and I am still with it today because it works.

Not so much for silhouette and midrange though. 1-20 with 16 twist in 40 cal or 18 twist 44 or 45 cal works just fine out to 600 yards.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
User avatar
JonnyV
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:52 pm
Location: Living in a van down by the river eatin’ Govt cheese
Contact:

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by JonnyV »

Everything is always perfect until "some guy" starts in tinkering around.... :lol:
Kurt
Posts: 8428
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:28 pm
Location: Not Far enough NW in Illinois

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Kurt »

I pretty much traveled down the same trails as DD with the tight twists, but I did it with the ,44 calibers I prefer shooting. I went from a 1/19, 1/17 and 1/16. I shot a lot of bullets out west at gong shoots, it was the only time I had a chance shooting long range other than a local match at Lodi once or twice a year.
Spending all the time testing bullets and load combinations, man some times 2000 rounds fired down range in a two week time frame several times during the season and I found that the 1/16 ROT started to show a down hill curve using alloys from 1/20 to 1/12 from 1.3" to 1.55" long in all twists from 19 to 16. I have a .45-2.4 I put a 16 twist on it and I found that it started to perform very well using a 1.458" long PJ Creedmoor nosed PP bullet but it did not perform the way I wanted till I started to use the lead/tin/antimony alloy mix, but even with the PP I had a problem with lead smears by the end of the day.
This chamber has a 45º transition. I sent a chamber cast in with instructions what I wanted for a throating reamer made and that chamber ended up with a 5º transition and the 1000 and 1026 yard long tests showed a great improvement and the lead smears went away.
The longer the ogive radius needs a faster twist to hold stability and the faster twist also needs a alloy that will take the pressure that gets put on the lands.

I also have a Brooks GG mould that is a 5 grooved Creedmoor nosed that casts a 556 gr #2 Lyman alloy bullet 1.485" long I used in the 18 twist .45-2.4 Shiloh and I have jet to find a bullet that will shoot as well as it does at the gong shoots out to 1000 yards.
I think what it takes is time behind the buttplate to get the most out of the rifle no matter what the ROT is.
Alloy, load development, and proper case preparation.

Kurt
The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"Winston Churchill
Woody
Posts: 6060
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:02 am
Location: Freetown, Indiana

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by Woody »

I think what it takes is time behind the buttplate to get the most out of the rifle no matter what the ROT is.
Alloy, load development, and proper case preparation.
What else is there to say?

Woody
Richard A. Wood
If you are surrounded. You are in a target rich environment.
User avatar
desert deuce
Posts: 3842
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Rio Rico, Arizona

Re: 16-1, 20-1

Post by desert deuce »

Nada.
Sometimes you get the chicken, and sometimes you get the feathers!
Post Reply