Looky here what got kilt in Iowa

Bad Bill · Post by **Bad Bill** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:19 pm

Okay, probably an unfair comparison to the neighbor's cat. At 20 lbs he just looks huge but is really a ball of fat wrapped in fluff. Still I've seen him jump over a concrete building block which actually was quite a surprise.

Anyone know what SD cats really eat? I'd bet rabbits would be high on the menu.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:25 pm

The vast majority of their diet is deer.

Not surprising that you can confuse a lion for your house cat. Most of the "sightings" are similar - yellow labs, 20# over fed house cats, etc.

I remember once at UGA when the call came in for a komodo dragon in someone's backyard. "As big as my Golden Retriever" was the claim. The grad students sent to check it out on a lark, came home with a pet-trade iguana in a Nike shoe box. Did you make that call too Bill?

Brent

Bad Bill · Post by **Bad Bill** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:56 pm

That call too? Nope.

And, we both know that "Esse est percipi" as Berkeley used to say, -at least some of the time. The person that turned and saw that iguana on her/his windowsill no doubt was prepared to see a large, fearful, creature, and that's what she/he saw. This, of course, is what "common sense" gets you sometimes.

Personally, I used to see tigers all the time on yonder hill; but at 5 years old I wasn't exactly the exception. Never could get over the fact my mother didn't seem to really believe me. Might have had something to do with the paintings on Sambo's restaurants but probably you never encountered one of those in Iowa.

The grad student, of course, expected to see (after all, he went there - sent on a lark) a shoe-box sized iguana. That's what he saw. That's what he reported on his i-phone.

Why is it they only found the grad students left foot which still had his caulk boot tightly laced up around it. That's what I still wonder about.

Trigger Dr · Post by **Trigger Dr** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:18 pm

Once while hunting in north central Washington, I was speaking with a "biologist", and when I told him that I had seen Pronghorn Antelope on the ridge behind him, he told me that there were no antelope in Washington. I told him to turn around and look at the three standing on the ridge right then, probably 350 - 400 yds away. He turned around and claimed he could not see them, though my 2 hunting partners saw them. So much for "Biologists"

DR308 · Post by **DR308** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am

YA!!: Who are you guys going to believe? ME?"

" OR YOUR LIE'N EYE'S?

After All---We are from the Government, and We are here to help you!

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:35 am

Guys,

I gotta agree but would add there are some very good biologists in the field in addition to some very poor ones. In fact, biologists are about like most of the professional trades/careers (e.g. doctors, lawyers, etc.) in that 50% of them graduated in the bottom half of their class. Of course, the smart money then is to try to do business/get answers from the ones at the top; buyer beware.

Additionally, in all fairness sometimes the politics involved can really taper the quality of answers one receives; the higher one goes in the food chain for answers the more politically correct the answers may be. For example, rumor control has it this is going on in some states that won't admit there are mtn. lions in their state, when they know better. Sad to say it may take a dead lion on the front steps of the main DNR building to convince otherwise.

Regards

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:50 am

ironramrod wrote:In fact, biologists are about like most of the professional trades/careers (e.g. doctors, lawyers, etc.) in that 50% of them graduated in the bottom half of their class.

That is an interesting comment. I'd argue that the average research biologist at the average research university, a guy like Jon Jenks for instance, will be well well above the 50th percentile. Way above it in fact.

In the meantime, the statements,
1. There is a mountain lion in Iowa
2. There is a female mountain lion in Iowa
3. There is a breeding female mountain lion in Iowa
4. There is a POPULATION of mountain lions in Iowa

Are really really different things. So far, we have gotten as far as step 1.
But the armchair experts really "know" that we are well into step 4 and have been for decades.

Where would you put your money?

Brent

Dan O · Post by **Dan O** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:33 pm

Brent

Thats a good point. The fact is it is all speculation to some point. In my opinion only from watching the Mt FW&P over the years it is all an educated guess as to the populations based on the latest info available at the time.

One thing for certain that is a fact you have 1 less lion running around than before. That is a fact and about the only one a guy can be sure of.

Now remember that is just my opinion based on speculation of the best known information at the time which was speculation at the time it was the best known information

Dan

Bad Bill · Post by **Bad Bill** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:48 pm

For us doubters, even that fact (lion shot in Iowa)isn't sure. Guys have been known to poach in another state and when caught or stopped by the police, concoct a story of how and where they got the animal.

Any of you remember Jonas Brothers? (Sort of was like Herters or Cabelas at one time). They ran a commercial poaching operation complete with guide service! For the rich and famous, of course.

On the other hand, if there is one mountain lion in Iowa, there are probably two and you know what that can result in

Rooster57 · Post by **Rooster57** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:34 pm

On the other hand, if there is one mountain lion in Iowa, there are probably two and you know what that can result in

Yep, gay lions if Brent is right.....

[/quote]

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:24 pm

Brent,

Agreed that the 4 statements are vastly different and indicate big differences in population status. So where would I put my money? First, I would have to say it probably isn't "smart money", because I have minimal field experience with the felid species and zero experience with mtn. lions other than some lion manuscripts I have read.

With that qualifier I can make a few guesstimates on Iowa lions based on dramatic changes we saw in the canid populations here in the 70's-mid 90's. Statement #1 has already been established for Iowa lions, but we don't know if there is another male lion still alive in Iowa after the latest mortality; however, there probably is one not far away, because the news articles and the Iowa DNR indicate they keep coming. #2 rates a "definite maybe", because females probably disperse as well as males; possibly not as far or as fast. Once #2 becomes established, #3 and #4 can arrive fairly quickly, if #1 is in place and waiting. If I had to guess based on what we saw here in the canids and because we are often a couple of steps behind the animal, I would say that Iowa is possibly between #2 and #3 on the lions. If not, then it is probably more of a "when" thing rather than "if."

The biggest problem the lions will likely encounter for survival is farmers with a .30/30 beside them in the pickup. The big predators historically have never been a popular item in the agriculture community, and some things haven't changed since 1890.

Regards

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:39 pm

Iron,
I would say that there is a good chance of #1, but whether that is 5% or 50% I really can't say. #2, pretty damn small.

#3 VERY VERY small. I agree it may happen eventually. After all, I am a fan of limiting probabilities.

But the leap from $3 to #4 is a lot bigger than any of the others and I would put that at not larger than epsilon. Maybe even a lot smaller than that.

I have been expecting reports of breeding wolves in Iowa, but so far, no luck. I think we will reach #4 for wolves long before we reach #4 for lions.

And farmers just about never carry 30-30s. They carry 12 gauges.

Brent

ironramrod · Post by **ironramrod** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:06 pm

Brent,

My guess is that you are correct on all points, because you have a much better feel for Iowa in general and current events in particular than I ever would have. Additionally, I'm sure you're more up to speed on the current state of the art in lion biology investigations than I am.

Farmers/ranchers around here are generally carrying a .30/30 or similar, but the good ol' 12 ga. is a hard one to beat for predator work especially with a full house load of BB's or #4 buckshot. In fact, a .12 ga. is what the local police and 2 G&F wardens used to kill a mtn. lion about 2 weeks ago that was sitting in a rock pile across the street from the Home Depot parking lot in north Bismarck. Personally, I would have done that job differently, but it worked out and none of them got torn to shreds.

Regards

Bad Bill · Post by **Bad Bill** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:07 pm

"In fact, a .12 ga. is what the local police and 2 G&F wardens used to kill a mtn. lion about 2 weeks ago that was sitting in a rock pile across the street from the Home Depot parking lot in north Bismarck. Personally, I would have done that job differently, but it worked out and none of them got torn to shreds."

Did they all fire at once ?:roll: You never can be too careful.

mdeland · Post by **mdeland** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:36 pm

Bill, I'm sure I would like you in person. You always look at things from an angle I never considered! I like "cockeyed" it's different , interesting and humorous!

I know, the pot calling the kettle black!

MD