Special Catagory Awards

This is where you can place your scores from the matches. It uses an excel spread sheet! If you send me your sheet of scores I can put it on the forum and provide a link where everyone can view it.

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Glen Ring
Posts: 904
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:45 pm

Special Catagory Awards

Post by Glen Ring »

At this year's BPCR Silhouette championships there were 54 competitors in the iron sight class. 26 were seniors, and there were 9 super seniors, one woman and one junior.
Scope class showed 71 competitors . 32 seniors, 19 super seniors, two women, and two juniors.
The majority of shooters were SS or S class.

We need more Junior class shooters and as budgets get tighter and tighter, what makes more sense..cutting senior and super senior awards to go deeper and offer better prizes for juniors ?

Doing away with the high woman awards and putting that money toward junior shooters?
In my former profession, if you indicated that there would be a high woman award for anything the next trip to the gym would find you getting your rear kicked by ...a woman and then possibly facing an EEOC complaint.

Modern business women do not like special categories and the majority of my female buds can shoot and fight with anyone.
In Iron sight class one young lady BEAT 31 of the 54 competitors..who were men!

I would be very interested in hearing other's opinions on shifting the focus to junior shooters when dealing with tight budgets and special categories.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
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Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by jackrabbit »

My wife loves the high woman award and one of her goals is to one day shoot the nationals in big bore and be high woman. Of course she's not your typical modern woman either. The high senior award seems dumb to me as there were only a handful that weren't senior or super senior.

Glen, you are asking for discussion and I do not want to start another pissing match, so please no one interpret my following statement as trying to start a fight. The fact is, you can give junior awards till you are blue in the face and you are never going to attract young people or families in a large scale with the matches taking up basically two weeks. Younger families (or just younger people in general) have to WORK and have very limited vacation time to share with everyone's wants. The only people that can attend the national matches now are either retired people, or those that are very dedicated to the sport. If you want younger families to be there, you have to figure out how to have the matches over a long weekend to minimize time off work. You also have to figure out how to get the matches scheduled at a similar time each year, you have to have some awards that people really want to win, and you have to publicize both before and after the match. I am always surprised at the number of NRA members I meet that have no idea that the NRA runs matches. They might have heard of Camp Perry, but that's about it. I think post regular people are turned off by all of the coats, slings, and crazy looking guns that they have no idea where they would get. Lever gun would really shine with just a little bit of media promotion as it is regular guy's sport and does not need a bunch of specialized equipment or knowledge.

Shooting at the Nationals is a great experience that I like very much. I love seeing all my old friends and meeting new ones. That match is basically the same as it always has been, except with fewer people, few vendors, and crummier awards. It is either going to have to evolve, or go the way of the dodo.... We have some great examples to look at with other shooting sports that are doing quite well (PRS for example) that we could learn from. I will always maintain that we have to think as a capitalist and not a socialist when running matches. Reward the winners and give them all the attention you can. Make the match as well run and fair as is possible. Use all the media resources you can to spread the word before and AFTER the matches. Trying to sell the match on the modern, socialist, participation award bs (aka door prizes) about everyone having a good time, everyone's equal some just shot better than others, let's have a re-union, will attract no new shooters. People that are thinking of coming are not interested in joining a re-union of people they don't know, they want to shoot and see how well they do and hopefully win. If they are not interested in that, they just go plinking at some local spot with their friends.

Probably more than you wanted, but the National matches are very important to me and I hate to see them suffering.
Cody
Glen Ring
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:45 pm

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by Glen Ring »

We are thinking outside "The Box" with our matches. We have folks tell us they rather come to our matches than any other because the emphasis is on fun.

I shot run and gun and combat matches for years. That background has allowed me to make fun side matches at our lever gun regional s.
Now with BPCR we will have team shootouts under time and the newest side match is going to be " Practical Buffalo Rifle."

Blending of disciplines and adding factual history make the matches more interesting.

Our biggest obstacles are a couple of negative folks who say " That would NEVER work." They are going the way of the Thylacine .

Shoot 40 rounds at sanctioned targets, distances and times...but then we'll have a side match shooting Prairie Dog targets at 500 meters, pepper poppers at various distances ..etc. You get the idea.

My boundless enthusiasm and Positive outlook coupled Jeanne's superior Organization skills seem to be working well and attracting shooters to our range.

Come shoot with us sometime.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by jackrabbit »

I don't disagree, Glen, and I would love to come shoot there sometime, but we are not talking about the matches in Oklahoma, we are talking about the National BPCR matches at Raton. I am not sure the same recipe that works well for local matches has the same effect on a National level.

I like side matches, too.
Glen Ring
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:45 pm

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by Glen Ring »

I want to write an article ref the BPCR silhouette match. Your wife took a bunch of pics and said she'd send them to us. Glennbob@mbo.net is my e-mail...and I'll get to writing. Thanks.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
S & B Morris
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by S & B Morris »

Thank you for expressing what a lot of us feel about the way the Nationals are headed, Cody. I don't know of any woman that has won that High Woman marble obelisk that hasn't been very proud to take it home, whether there were 30 other women competing, or 2 other women. I hope that Coralee will get to experience that someday! My most treasured rifle is "Surely", the Shiloh Sharps that was presented to me at the Nationals in 2008 for winning High Woman. I can't put into words how much encouragement that gave me to keep working to improve & become a better rifleman (17 years & still chasing the dream). I think if you ask Carol Scott, Sammie Rice, Jen Oliva, Faye Nunn, Jennifer Roulet, Cheryl Pestel, Marilyn Floyd, Dee Taylor or any of the other women who have taken that marble trophy home, they might feel the same way. As far as "diverting money away" from the High Woman award...every award that I ever received was generously donated by MVA, Shiloh, SPG, and others. To my knowledge, the NRA never donated anything other than the trophy. As far as the junior shooters, Steve & I recognized pretty early on that the NRA wasn't doing much to encourage participation. As a result, we worked with Greg Conner to have a presentation at the awards ceremony where the junior shooters would come up together to have their pictures taken. Upper Nisqually Sportsmen's Club donated a custom medal to each shooter & they also received a gift (spotting boards, Walters wads, MLV book, gift certificates, etc). I don't know that it had any effect on junior participation, but would like to think that maybe when those kids grow up, that they will find their way back to the sport. We didn't look at it as a "participation" everybody gets a trophy" thing, but as a way to acknowledge the hard work & dedication of those kids and to encourage them to keep shooting. Same kind of thing that the BPCR .22 match does so successfully.

A good question to ask is...who actually supports & pays for the Nationals? Is it the 15-20 guys at the top who realistically have a shot to win the top spot, or is it the majority of the AAA, AA, A & B shooters who pay the bulk of the entries so that there can BE a Nationals? How do you acknowledge & encourage those shooters so that they will keep coming back? It was pretty disheartening last year to see only one award given to each class for each match, and the daily match winner (for a NATIONAL MATCH!) given a cheap little trinket. No awards, no door prizes, no drawings,.....not much reason for a lot of people to spend all that time & money to make that trip. Of course, that isn't the only reason why we go to the Nationals. We all have our different reasons.....getting to visit with & learn from some of the best, the pure enjoyment of shooting at the most beautiful range in the country, shooting & testing ourselves. But we come from all over the country & beyond to compete for National awards....so where did the awards go? If you think that it isn't that important, forget to give a new shooter his first 5 pin & see how long it takes him to remind you!
For me personally, a trip to Raton has always been a renewal of energy & enthusiasm for the sport that feeds me thru the next shooting season. But it is increasingly hard to be enthused about a match that seems to be less about the shooters & more about what is good for the NRA. I don't think it is so much about the sport in general because there are fantastic, well run state, regional & local matches all over the country that continue to draw good attendance. Seems like there is a choice to be made....either enhance the Nationals experience for every shooter, or continue to lose those "bread & butter" guys that are the backbone of the Nationals. The top competitors will always show up, but it's sad to think that there may not be anything to show up for if things don't change.
Beth Morris
"Be kinder than necessary, because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
GrumpyBear
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Location: Western,Pa

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by GrumpyBear »

Cody I have met, but not Beth, but I heartily agree with what they have said, and at 63, I am new to this game, but really enjoy it,(the shooting/competing) and the camaraderie involved. hope to make it to Raton next year.
VectorMan
Posts: 340
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Location: NW Missouri

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by VectorMan »

Cody is spot on once again. I try to shoot at my local range at Miller Kansas every month as much as I can. Every year for the past 3 to 4 years I’ve wanted to go shoot the Nationals but couldn’t because of work and family. For me, I have come to the conclusion that I will not think about the Nationals much and concentrate on my local clubs near me more until I retire in 15 years. This year I stuck out on my own and attended the Tornado Alley shoot at the OKGC. I hooked up and shot with some guys from Tappan Hill. I had a blast and got 1st in AA class. I will attend the regional at OKGC in September, because I can only attend 2 day weekend or 3 day weekend matches. I love the 22 and the big bore matches, so I’ll be able to shoot them all at that event. I’m dying to get into mid range and Creedmoor but again it’s probably a 15 year wait.
As Cody said, the Nationals is mostly for retired guys.
Speaking from experience as I am 50 years old, work 40 to 50 hours every week, try to manage the 19 acres I reside on, and raise a family, it’s dam tough to do all that and load enough ammo to shoot a local weekend club match every month let alone strike out on an 6 to 10 hour drive to attend a bigger shoot somewhere. A week long match through the work week, forget it.
I’ve been watching some new attendees at our local matches and I see them struggle with the correct loads, or the corrrect equipment. They might only shoot 1 day out of the weekend because of not enough ammo, or time to load it or the funds to shoot that much or just not enough time period. I see them get really frustrated and often wonder if they will give it up. I know I have had that thought from time to time. I’m sure a bunch have done just that. I’ve often wondered if somehow a prize of some sort for the lowest score at a match would help out. It could be geared towards something a beginning shooter could use. Powder, primers, brass, or some other equipment. Maybe a compression die or gift certificate from BACO. I know how I would have felt in the beginning when my score was lowest on the board if I would have got $25 from BACO for something I was needing to help with my loading. I feel for the new shooters because I know they have no idea in the beginning on what it will take to make AAA and Master. I know I didn’t. Money and time, a lot of both, but most of all I believe is help from the veteran shooters. When your a new shooter with just a few matches under your belt, you know by now who the really good shooters and spotters are at the local range and if they come ove and really talk to you and help, that means a lot.

The new beginning shooters need all the help they can get.
"keep adding powder til it bloodies your nose and blacks your eyes, then back it off bout 5 grains."
jackrabbit
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Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by jackrabbit »

Thank you guys for chiming in. It's good to know I am not completely goofy and you have some really good points.

We'll get those pics sent to you, Glen asap.
take care, Cody
bryany
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Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by bryany »

Cody, you're still a little goofy but I agree with your take on this. :D
“I wonder if God created man because He was disappointed with the monkey.” Mark Twain
BFD
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Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by BFD »

Cody, you aren't completely goofy, though I disagree with some of your points.

But that said, some other things I have seen at matches are prizes such as one that used to be donated by Steve Brooks - a mold to the top AA shooter (maybe it as the top A). It was a way to get shooters who might not have the best stuff, a leg up and perhaps become more successful (and more likely to continue). Giving a new mold to the top Master shooter is nice but probably not something he really needs. So maybe the more valuable awards could go to the lesser classes. I don't know. Just thinking out loud.

Nonetheless, I don't feel that prizes are anything more than a minor point when it comes to recruiting and retaining shooters. I don't know what really is a major point other than new folks seeing others having a really good time and thinking maybe they want to get in on a piece of the action.

We have kicked around this topic for years now and not come up with a magic bullet. I don't see that changing, so just go out, have fun, let others know about how much fun it is, and give them an invitation to pick up your rifle and shoot a bit. Maybe that's where it's at (and loan them a copy of "Quigley Down Under").
Glen Ring
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:45 pm

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by Glen Ring »

Again, I agree with Brent.
Watching him and Al shoot it's obvious they want to do well...but that's just a very small piece of the experience. I saw more pics posted by these guys of FOOD and the View at Raton more than anything else..and they both shot VERY well.

I have always been a problem solver and I always ask folks for their points of view on how to make things better.

Folks like Brent and Al have fun...if you were near Jeanne and i shooting you knew we had fun.

facing smaller and smaller budgets and with the Whittington Center being SO busy, it's hard to please everyone...so we'll just go with our 82 year old IHMSA guy who says " Just please 70% and you're a success."

From the many positive responses we have received I think Jeanne and her team went way above 70%. Maybe we'll reach 90% by next year...Now it's Regional Planning time for our lever action and BPCR regionals that are 4 days apart!!
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
jackrabbit
Posts: 1792
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:04 pm
Location: Carpenter Wyoming

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by jackrabbit »

All I can say is I really try to recruit as many as I can to our sport and to go to the Nationals. I think I have about 6 or 7 that have actually taken the leap and made the trip to Raton. They all went down there to shoot well. They practiced hard, loaded the finest ammo they could, and talked and thought a lot about shooting for weeks or even months before they went. They all wanted to see where they stacked up against many of the best riflemen in the nation. They all hoped to place in their class or maybe even win. They didn't go for the view, or the camping, or the friends, they went to shoot and to shoot well. Now all of those things may keep them coming back, but that is not why they went in the first place. If you ask around about why shooters first were interested in going to Raton, they will tell it was to shoot. Trying to sell the Nationals as some kind of camping trip where you shoot your guns is a mistake. It is the premier BPCR event in the nation where the National Champion is determined. Any attempt to water that down will not encourage new shooters to come take part.
take care,
Cody
Glen Ring
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:45 pm

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by Glen Ring »

Oh Grasshopper...you have so much to learn about life.
There are those that talk, and those that act. Make a choice.
SFogler
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 9:19 am

Re: Special Catagory Awards

Post by SFogler »

Cody and Beth - thank you for writing your thoughts and comments out. I agree with you 100%.
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