Shooting 'New' Carbine

[Todd Birch]

Been playing with my 'new' .50 Farmingdale '63 carbine with both BP (60 grs) and .54 calibre 60 gr Pyro pellets.
Accuracy with both is great out to 150 yards, but it binds up a lot quicker with Pyro than BP.

It is no feat to put three rds into a cloverleaf group at 50 yds from the bench. Off hand, that widens to 2 1/2", good hunting accuracy. At 100 yds from the bench, I get 3-1/4" three shot groups, 5"-6" off hand. Good enough to hunt with.

At 150 yds, it will hold a 6" group from a rest, probably as far as I'd shoot at a deer with it.

Now I know why there are so many carbines wearing tang and globe sights in Seller's book.

[halfslow]

Sounds like you have the right load for that carbine. I agree about the tang sights being superior. Anytime I use open sights, I have to decide which excuse I willl use to explain the patterns I shoot.
I have just started to shoot a paper cartridge Sharps and find that pyrodex gives me hang fires. Looks like it will be black at the next range session. I am surprised you found that Pyrodex binds up quicker than black. I would have thought the opposite, which is why I tried Pyro for my first time out. Shows what happens when I think.
Roger

[Todd Birch]

halfslow

The Pyrodex I'm using is in pellet form - the .54 calibre 60 gr. I roll them with a sized, lubed bullet for a perfect looking cartridge.

They have a smear of BP on the base, so ignition is instantaneous. I've never tried Pyrodex in powder form in any gun.

[halfslow]

Ah. I see.
Before I did any shooting, I read trough the archives here and decided to roll paper tubes to hold the Pyrodex powder. The paper cartridge sure makes reloading quick and easy. I can see how the bp would help lite it off, as long as the powders were not allowed to mix. The pellet looks like the solution to that worry.
Thanks for the info. I will try the pellets soon. Only reason for starting with Pyrodex powder is because it was handy.
Roger

[Todd Birch]

Halfslow

It is the convenience of using the Pyro pellets that appealed to me. It is odd that the maker cautions against the mixing of BP and Pyrodex, while using that coating of BP on the base of their pellets for good ignition!

Pyrodex has the reputation of being hard to ignite, but as it becomes more difficult for people to get and ship BP, it may be the way for some to go. There are other BP substitutes out there as well.

The .54 calibre pellets are perfect for rolling .50 calibre cartridges, undersized for .54. For my .54 '63, I use tubes purchased from Charlie Hahn, plugged with TP at one end.
I'm actually gluing my ringtail bullets to the tubed with contact bond cement and there are no flyers as I thought there would be. The tube is completely blown off the bullet and out the barrel.

Todd

[halfslow]

Before I firmly conclude pyrodex will not work in this sharps, I will do more testing. The caps may be weak, and that long path between the cap and powder isn't helping.
I did not attach the powder tube to the bullet as I seat the bullet into the rifling so it starts out straight. Maybe I am trying too hard?
Tomorrow is supposed to be 72 here, so I plan a trip to the range. I will try black only this time.
I saw the postings on the cardboard tubes, but need to determine what this Pedersoli needs before ordering any. I do like the concept, however. Almost like loading a cartridge gun.
Roger

[Todd Birch]

Roger

Yesterday I made up some rounds with BP. In order to get the same overall length as my Pyro pellet loads, I had to reduce the powder charge to 50 grs.
The chamber in my .50 is really short compared to my .54 '63 Sporter which will hold 100 grs+ behind that ring tail bullet - OUCH! If I ever have to shoot a mammoth, I've got the load.
75 grs with Charlie Hahn's tubes is a fun, accurate load for that rifle.

It's a beautiful day, so i think I'll do to the range and try them out. My guess is that they will be accurate but not up to snuff for spring bear hunting.

Todd

[Todd Birch]

Fired some of the 50 gr BP loads I made up today.

Like I figured, they went high - about 1" higher than the 60 gr Pyro pellet loads at 50 yards. The groups printed a full 8" above my aiming point.

But then I fired a 3 shot group with the Pyro loads and they went into the same group! I guess it was the bright, clear day that let me creep the front sight a little higher than normal.

From the bench, it is no great feat keeping all shots in the 8" black at 100 yds, but you don't have a bench when hunting. So I fired a 5 shot group off hand at 100.
They printed into a 4x4-1/4" group 11" above POA. That is gonna make it a bit tough to hold on a bear, depending on how much of the critter I see.

Next time out, I shoot sitting, my preferred hunting position.

[halfslow]

I had to delay my range trip for one day for family reasons.
Spent some time re-reading the posts on paper cartridges. One thing I am unclear on is how do you keep the bullet concentric to the bore while it is in the chamber? For example, the Pedersoli powder chamber id is .608 in. The bore id is about .520 and the bullet nose is .465. Even gluing the paper tube on the back only partially aligns the bullet. Are the dimensions of your Shiloh similar? And does it even matter? This is one reason I made a seating tool. Other reason is to get more powder behind the bullet
As far as poi. Same here. I am even thinking of making a higher front blade to get the holes on the target closer to where I am looking.
I am beginning to like your pyro pellet idea. Loaded up some paper tubes with 65 gr bp with tp covering the back opening. One sprang a leak and dribbled all over the table.
Shooting from sitting position is a great way to hit things. Back in the days when I shot hipower matches, I learned I could actually do quite well at 200 yards sitting. Recoil was less of a bother also.
Roger

[Todd Birch]

halfslow

The bores on my Shiloh .50s mikes out at .510, 50-70 as well as '63 percussion. I size .512. No idea about the chambers, but there is clearance around any cartridge I feed the '63s.

I don't sweat the concenticity thing. In the era, cartidges were a 'one size fits all' proposition, hence the design of the Christmas Tree bullet with three different bullet diameters. Four, if you count the nose.

What was allegedly a .54 was closer to .52, enabling the conversion to 50-70 of thousands of carbines after the Civil War.

If I really want accuracy, I hand seat the bullets, put in a paper tube with the powder charge and compress it with a short starter. It may be one of those "If I think it works - then it does' things.

One of the cartridge conversion kits for the .44 Remington starts it's rounds off with a 1* cant due to the diameter of the rim. Accuracy is reported to be phenomenal! The bullet has to jump from the cylinder to the forcing cone and be swadged to bore diameter.

So, in a rifle chamber, it's simply a matter of the bullet meeting the leade of the rifling ahead of the chamber and it's on it's way. Works for me .....

Next time you plug a tube with TP, shove it in place with a dowel.
Using a Q-tip, put a smear of glue where you want it to stick inside the tube.

[halfslow]

I was hoping you would say that about concentricity. It will be a lot easier to drop the bullet/charge cartridge into the chamber at the same time.
Tried bp yesterday. It sure is dirty. I had dipped the bullets in SPG and after 10 shots, the sliding chamber was still loose, but the back plate was solidly grunged up and stuck on the breech block. And of course, spitting gas and fouling.
As far as the tp is concerned, I did glue a single piece in the back; it just is not very tolerant of abuse.
Thanks for all your suggestions. Before I copy your pyro pellet idea I will try to figure out a way to get lube behind the cartridge with every shot. I see that the flash hole in the block drops below the front face of the action. If I could get some lube into there, It may make this a keeper.

[Todd Birch]

Roger

Perhaps a grease cookie under the bullet would help. You'd need a card wad to separate it from the powder on a warm day.

However, you're having the same build up of powder fouling that we all experience with '63s.
My .54 Shiloh Sporter lets me get off about 10 rds before it gets tough to open the action. My .50 Military Rifle and Carbine lock up pretty tight after 5-6 rounds. If I want a longer string, I put a few drops of cleaning solution between the shear plate and the end if the barrel before opening.
I also make a practice of wiping the rear of the barrel with a wet patch or even my moistened finger.

I'd like to read a few historical caccounts about the use of these rifles in combat. I can't believe that they didn't have similar problems in the heat of battle. I'll bet a little water was slopped on the breech from a canteen to keep them working.

To close the end of your cartridges, try a double thickness of TP or a single of thick paper towel. I've had good luck with that. Right now I'm using a single thickness ot the same onion skin paper I'm using for the cartridges. The flash burns through just fine with no hang fires.

The percussion '63 is a 'love it or hate it' proposition, even for dyed in the wool Sharps lovers. I like them for their use in the Civil War, the fact that the Brits nearly adopted it (Robbins & Lawrence defaulted on delivery times under the terms of the contract) and because it's where it all began for the Sharps dynasty.

[halfslow]

Thank you. Your last post is the most encouraging thing I have read in a while. I was beginning to think I had a "Monday" gun or even worse, I should paint it yellow. If those Shilohs of yours bind up that quickly, I don't feel so bad. I have started wondering the same thing: how did the soldiers in the civil war ever get through a battle without stopping every few shots and cleaning the darn thing. Seems like a muzzleloader would be better if the battle lasted more than fifteen minutes. And Sharps reportedly made about 100,000 for the military.

I feel there are several problems causing the Sharps gooping up.
Firstly, the sliding chamber. I am using SPG and dipping the bullets in bottom first. There is aparently enough lube up front to keep the sliding chamber and the bore working fine. I think you don't have the sliding chamber, so this doesn't completely apply to you.
Secondly, the breech block. There being no lube out back, the fouling buildup pretty much makes the breech block immovable without attention. Since I left my little "pull the burnt paper outta the chamber" wire hook home, I had to resort to trying to blow the paper scraps out of the barrel. I noticed immediately that the lever operated easier and the block rose with less drag. Ok, I can see the value of blowing on the fouling to soften it. I also squirted some windex on the breech about shot #8 which eased things even more.
Thirdly, the little floating gas seal plate which also you don't have. After the third shot, the rifle started spitting gas in my face. I took the block out and noted the thing was stuck. Decided to leave it alone and see what happened. The gas spitting got worse.
If I could find a way to get lube to blast backwards into and onto the breech block, I would try the shooting test again.
Next time, I will use a paper towel to close the end. I was actually considering just twisting the paper, but wasting that hard to get bp just did not appeal to me.

The mystique of the '59/'63 Sharps is what made me look for one in the first place. At the moment, I consider it a challenge to be faced.
Roger

[Todd Birch]

Roger

I'm glad that you found my comments useful. Thats' the idea behind this forum - to pass along information.

You're right, the Shilohs lack that sliding chamber sleeve, but they do have the forward moving gas plate like the originals. Just how much movement these have after the first few shots is moot.
I need a padded vise to pry the gas plate from the breechblock in order to clean it. I really wonder how Berdan's boys and other users did this in the field! The flash hole clean out screw is also tough to remve after any number of shots.
Before I leave the range, the bore is clean, and I flush the breecblock with a spray bottle. I get flow from the flash hole in the block to the nipple and it soaks until I get home. It's still is a chore to disassemble and clean, and I'm not tired and dirty after a battle .....

You seem to have a pretty severe gas escape problem. That is why the Brits rejected the 1855 slant breech model for adoption. The gas escape was burning the cuffs of too many expensive uniforms!
They tested the later vertical breech '59, and it passed acceptance trials, but by then, they had settled on another design.

You may have to resort to using those Pedersoli brass chamber inserts. They may have to be custom fit to your chamber.

For best results, I blow between shots with my 50-70 blow tube to both moisten powder fouling and make sure no smouldering paper lingers. With the paper I'm using, it's rare that I have any residue left.

Once in a while, I use the twisted paper type of cartridge, but it results in spilled powder every time. That's why they developed chamber length cartridges with compressed BP during the Civil War.
You get 100% uniformity every time in powder weight - hence my like of Pyrodex pellets. Easy handling, effective and reliable.

It's all worthwhile when I challenge some guy with a scoped modern rifle to an offhand match at the 100, 150 and 200 yard gongs.

[Rich Siegel]

Roger,

I make my paper cartridges out of computer or copy paper that I nitrate. They burn completely in the chamber. I use women's hair curler paper to seal the open end. Just put kids white glue around the edge of the cartridge and put the curler paper over the end and press down the sides of the paper into the glue.

As for fouling, I shoot my Shiloh '63 military carbine in North-South Skirmish Association matches. We fire up to 15 rounds as fast as we can load and aim. I then clean my barrel and maybe after 25 rounds, put some cleaning solution on the breech. However, my carbine, like a vast majority of N-SSA shooters, has been modified with a "O" ring conversion. My gas seal plate is made out of bronze and when the breech is closed, the gas seal pushes back against a rubber "O" ring gasket. No gas leaks and when I pull the breech off for cleaning, the gas seal just falls out in my hand. My team mate has a Pedersoli with the same conversion but his gas seal is chromed steel.

Rich