Rich
Does the NSSA offer drawings and instructions for such a conversion?
Sounds like the way to go for a lengthy course of fire.
Shooting 'New' Carbine
-
Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
"O" ring conversion
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
-
halfslow
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:12 pm
- Location: DFW, Texas
Todd.
First , let me apoligize for completely hijacking your thread.
I went to my local gunshop and bought a box of those 54/50 pyro pellets. I got to thinking: at the first range session, at which I used pyrodex, I had no gas-in-face experience. The gas seal plate was tight after I stopped shooting, but not as bad as with the bp. I need to learn more about that o-ring fix.
I see you already replied to Rich about the o-ring. Gosh I must type slow...
Rich
Maybe my reading comprehension has deteriorated since I retired, but I have searched the archives of the N-SSA forum and did not find enough detail to see about having it done.
As far as the paper is concerned, I guess any thin paper on the end would work. Wish the stores still carried saltpeter. I may try extracting some from bp once I get past these initial hurdles.
Thanks to both of you for jumping in and helping someone else experience this addiction.
Roger
First , let me apoligize for completely hijacking your thread.
I went to my local gunshop and bought a box of those 54/50 pyro pellets. I got to thinking: at the first range session, at which I used pyrodex, I had no gas-in-face experience. The gas seal plate was tight after I stopped shooting, but not as bad as with the bp. I need to learn more about that o-ring fix.
I see you already replied to Rich about the o-ring. Gosh I must type slow...
Rich
Maybe my reading comprehension has deteriorated since I retired, but I have searched the archives of the N-SSA forum and did not find enough detail to see about having it done.
As far as the paper is concerned, I guess any thin paper on the end would work. Wish the stores still carried saltpeter. I may try extracting some from bp once I get past these initial hurdles.
Thanks to both of you for jumping in and helping someone else experience this addiction.
Roger
-
Bob C
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:43 pm
I read a article a while back that was written as instructions for 63 Sharps shooters during the great war. The author suggested spit being generously used to keep the block moving. I have used that technique and it keeps the gun from bining up. I shot a IAB 63 sporter. I had to quit using Pydrex because of numerous misfires. I use cigarette papers glued to a mini ball with the tail twisted and use 60 grs of BP now. Hopefully I will get a chance in the next couple of weeks to shot it off the bench and see what I am doing for accuracy.
-
Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
Halfslow
First off, you didn't "Hijack" my thread. Unlike some on this site, I enjoy seeing where a topic leads. I appreciate the questions and the good input they have generated from others. I learn from all.
The only 'dumb question' is the one you don't have the gumption to ask.
In the past, I've bought saltpeter at the local pharmacy. Have a talk with your pharmacist. Once he's satisfied that you aren't a potential terrorist, you should be able to buy some.
I nitrated some paper and found it wasn't worth the extra effort. I'm happy with the lightweight onion skin I'm using.
Lets is know your success with the Pyro pellets.
First off, you didn't "Hijack" my thread. Unlike some on this site, I enjoy seeing where a topic leads. I appreciate the questions and the good input they have generated from others. I learn from all.
The only 'dumb question' is the one you don't have the gumption to ask.
In the past, I've bought saltpeter at the local pharmacy. Have a talk with your pharmacist. Once he's satisfied that you aren't a potential terrorist, you should be able to buy some.
I nitrated some paper and found it wasn't worth the extra effort. I'm happy with the lightweight onion skin I'm using.
Lets is know your success with the Pyro pellets.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
-
snapcap14
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:07 am
O-ring
not hard to do. There are a few guys on the NSSA board may be able to help you. there are several methods to do it. but the short and easist and cheapist of it is this. remove your gas check plate. find an o-ring that fits in the block. then take the gas check to a miachinest. have him mil the back side to about 1/3rd the thickness of the o-ring. you will need to compress the plate to breach block as you put it back in. remember not to mill to much off. you can take more off if needed but can't put it back once its off. the other method is to pull the breach sleave and have a 2 pcs stainlees w/ O-ring made. Ive had both done on seperate guns. the first method is the cheapist. the second make reinstalling the block after cleaning easier.
-
Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
'63 mod
Snapcap14
Sounds like you get a little forward thrust from the compression of the 'O' ring.
How long do the 'O' rings last before requiring replacement?
Sounds like you get a little forward thrust from the compression of the 'O' ring.
How long do the 'O' rings last before requiring replacement?
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
-
David Lee
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:35 pm
- Location: Connecticut
Gas Plate O'rings & grease
Hope this is helpful to you Todd,
I had the gas plate on my Montana 1863 modified so that there is a .002 to .003 difference between the plate and breech block wall upon insertion. The gas plate in my Shiloh was a very tight press fit and when fouled and hot enough would seize up. The neck of the plate was also machined (shortened) as Rich Seigel and Snapcap mentioned to accomodate the O'ring. The rings last a long time. They are a square cross section ring from McMaster Carr part #90025K377 $12.83/100. I also grease up the block with Extreme Pressure Lube #3 also from McMaster Carr part #1392K31. I can email you a pic of this arrangement if you wish. I cannot say that these particular O'rings will work in all Shiloh's as the dimensions may vary....check with Kirk on the breech block dimensions to be sure.
David
I had the gas plate on my Montana 1863 modified so that there is a .002 to .003 difference between the plate and breech block wall upon insertion. The gas plate in my Shiloh was a very tight press fit and when fouled and hot enough would seize up. The neck of the plate was also machined (shortened) as Rich Seigel and Snapcap mentioned to accomodate the O'ring. The rings last a long time. They are a square cross section ring from McMaster Carr part #90025K377 $12.83/100. I also grease up the block with Extreme Pressure Lube #3 also from McMaster Carr part #1392K31. I can email you a pic of this arrangement if you wish. I cannot say that these particular O'rings will work in all Shiloh's as the dimensions may vary....check with Kirk on the breech block dimensions to be sure.
David
-
Todd Birch
- Posts: 2133
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
- Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....
'63 mods
David
Now we're getting some where ....
Yes, I'd appreciate the pic of the arrangement. Anything that will enhance the shootability of the '63 and make it more of a pleasure than a chore.
My '63 Sporter is a current Shiloh product, the other two are Farmingdales, if that makes any difference.
I'd like to be able to fire the complete 20 rd course of fire in our 'nostalgia battle rifle' match without the rifle binding up on me.
If my personal email isn't posted on the site, I'll put it there.
Now we're getting some where ....
Yes, I'd appreciate the pic of the arrangement. Anything that will enhance the shootability of the '63 and make it more of a pleasure than a chore.
My '63 Sporter is a current Shiloh product, the other two are Farmingdales, if that makes any difference.
I'd like to be able to fire the complete 20 rd course of fire in our 'nostalgia battle rifle' match without the rifle binding up on me.
If my personal email isn't posted on the site, I'll put it there.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
-
halfslow
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:12 pm
- Location: DFW, Texas
David
I would appreciate a copy of the pictures also. My personal e-mail is correct.
I have searched the NSSA site and gleaned a little information. What surprises me is how little detail on the o-ring fix is available on the web. Rich and Snapcap did give us a good bit earlier, to the point that I have been measuring the gas plate dimensions of my pedersoli as I want to make a new one for the o-ring. Pictures would help a great deal.
Roger
I would appreciate a copy of the pictures also. My personal e-mail is correct.
I have searched the NSSA site and gleaned a little information. What surprises me is how little detail on the o-ring fix is available on the web. Rich and Snapcap did give us a good bit earlier, to the point that I have been measuring the gas plate dimensions of my pedersoli as I want to make a new one for the o-ring. Pictures would help a great deal.
Roger
-
David Lee
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:35 pm
- Location: Connecticut
Personal Email
Halfslow,
Where is your email address?? I can only see your pm button.
Where is your email address?? I can only see your pm button.
-
halfslow
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:12 pm
- Location: DFW, Texas
I received the pictures. Thanks.
I assume the o-ring sits in the corner of the breech block hole and the gas plate presses down into the groove in the ring.
This leaves the o-ring exposed to the hot powder gasses?
Also, is the large hole in the center of the plate original or has it been enlarged?
Lots of new information to process here.
Roger
I assume the o-ring sits in the corner of the breech block hole and the gas plate presses down into the groove in the ring.
This leaves the o-ring exposed to the hot powder gasses?
Also, is the large hole in the center of the plate original or has it been enlarged?
Lots of new information to process here.
Roger
-
snapcap14
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:07 am
halfslow
If you have a pedersoli contact them they now make a spring wash to put under the gas check I beleave it is round and sits in the hole. I do not know if the plate has to be modified or not. read about it on the N-SSA sight I beleave.
todd
that is what the o-ring is for. keeps it thight provents leaking yet allows it to open and close. If your plate has gas checking (erossion you will ned to replace it.
Dave and I both shoot in the NSSA in the same region.
a veriant from daves o-ring is to just get a neoprime on from the harware store. I change my o-rings about every 500 rounds just becausethere 27 cents each I normaly shoot a 100 rounds per shoot. i have been able to get a whole skirmishing season out of one o-ring.
If you have a pedersoli contact them they now make a spring wash to put under the gas check I beleave it is round and sits in the hole. I do not know if the plate has to be modified or not. read about it on the N-SSA sight I beleave.
todd
that is what the o-ring is for. keeps it thight provents leaking yet allows it to open and close. If your plate has gas checking (erossion you will ned to replace it.
Dave and I both shoot in the NSSA in the same region.
a veriant from daves o-ring is to just get a neoprime on from the harware store. I change my o-rings about every 500 rounds just becausethere 27 cents each I normaly shoot a 100 rounds per shoot. i have been able to get a whole skirmishing season out of one o-ring.
-
David Lee
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:35 pm
- Location: Connecticut
O'rings, hot gas, etc.
Roger, the gas plate does not sit exactly in the groove in the o'ring as there is only .0015" or so space between the plate insert and the breech block wall. The square ring provides a flat contact area on the base and the wall of the breech block. IMO, this is important. Everything in the pics that I emailed to you is as manufactured by Kirk and Shiloh. Only the diameter of the gas plate insert has been reduced by .002-.003. BTW, I cannot take credit for any of this as Charlie Hahn did this work for me after he and I bantered back and forth regarding fouling and breech blocks seizing up.
The pics I sent to you do not show you how the ring is set in the block. A ring of high temp/high pressure grease is placed in the block. The ring is then placed in the block and enough grease is added to fill the cavity up to the surface of the o'ring. The ring does not get burned up ... in fact after 50 rounds I could not detect any difference in the ring at all....the grease protects it.
David
The pics I sent to you do not show you how the ring is set in the block. A ring of high temp/high pressure grease is placed in the block. The ring is then placed in the block and enough grease is added to fill the cavity up to the surface of the o'ring. The ring does not get burned up ... in fact after 50 rounds I could not detect any difference in the ring at all....the grease protects it.
David
Last edited by David Lee on Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
halfslow
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:12 pm
- Location: DFW, Texas
This is great information guys. Thanks.
I hope I can respond clearly as I really want to shoot this rifle.
I discarded the Pedersoli steel rings as a bad solution. Even if all the surfaces parallel to the breech of the barrel are absolutely flat, there must still be a small clearance between these surfaces for the breech block to operate. This will allow gas to seep out and fouling to accumulate, freezing the action. The correct lube will delay this, but how ya gonna get it in there without removing the breech block every few shots?
I like the self correcting solution of the o-ring. It seals the breech as well as maintaining pressure on the gas seal allowing for some fouling buildup. Irregularities in the alignment of the surfaces are automatically compensated for. I see that the lack of gas flow out the back would delay the loss of lube also. It may be that there is a crust of fouling deposited over the grease protecting it somewhat from the hot powder gas.
In the Shiloh design the square o-ring looks like it would work better, but the Pedersoli would function well with a regular round style if, instead of grinding the plate thinner, only a relief groove was cut in the gas seal.
I need to sleep on this some.
Roger
I hope I can respond clearly as I really want to shoot this rifle.
I discarded the Pedersoli steel rings as a bad solution. Even if all the surfaces parallel to the breech of the barrel are absolutely flat, there must still be a small clearance between these surfaces for the breech block to operate. This will allow gas to seep out and fouling to accumulate, freezing the action. The correct lube will delay this, but how ya gonna get it in there without removing the breech block every few shots?
I like the self correcting solution of the o-ring. It seals the breech as well as maintaining pressure on the gas seal allowing for some fouling buildup. Irregularities in the alignment of the surfaces are automatically compensated for. I see that the lack of gas flow out the back would delay the loss of lube also. It may be that there is a crust of fouling deposited over the grease protecting it somewhat from the hot powder gas.
In the Shiloh design the square o-ring looks like it would work better, but the Pedersoli would function well with a regular round style if, instead of grinding the plate thinner, only a relief groove was cut in the gas seal.
I need to sleep on this some.
Roger