Looking for help with Pedersoli Sporting Rifle
-
Preacher Clint
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:42 am
- Location: Greenwood, LA
Looking for help with Pedersoli Sporting Rifle
I have an 1863 Pedersoli Sporting Rifle in .45 caliber. I'm looking for dimensions to make the paper cartridges -- i.e. what size do I cut my nitrated papers to. I did not receive a manual when I got this rifle, so any info would be appreciated. Also, where can I acquire a new gasplate should one become necessary?
-
Preacher Clint
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:42 am
- Location: Greenwood, LA
Thanks, John Boy!
Spent a little time this morning with the Sharps. Made my own rolling tools for the cartridges like I did 15 years ago for my Shiloh Carbine when I shot NSSA. Used 1/2" and 7/16" dowels. Measured my chamber with a 405 gr. Trapdoor Springfield bullet seated in the chamber and came up with a tube length needed of 2 1/4". Paper dimensions work out to be 2 1/4" x 4". I roll my tubes and use a base plug formed around the end of a smaller diameter dowel and seat and glue it in the bottom of the tube. This then works out to be an OAL of 2.761" for the loaded cartridge. I can fit 4.7 cc of powder in the tube, which works out to be about 65 gr. of FFG according to my Lee Dipper Chart.
So I'm now going to use a tablet of Primary School paper, like they teach kids to write on in kindergarten and first grade, and some Potassium Nitrate and make my nitrated papers. Will cut the paper to size on a paper cutter and use the scraps for base plugs.
Right now I have 777 FFG, Goex FFFG, Pyrodex RS and Goex Pinnacle FFFG on hand. I think I'll start with the subs since the bullets I have on hand are pre-lubed with smokeless lube. I'm thinking of buying the Lee 405 gr. 459 HB mold to use with this rifle and My original Trapdoor Springfield.
If you have any more recommendations, please post them. That goes for everyone! Thanks again.
Preacher
Spent a little time this morning with the Sharps. Made my own rolling tools for the cartridges like I did 15 years ago for my Shiloh Carbine when I shot NSSA. Used 1/2" and 7/16" dowels. Measured my chamber with a 405 gr. Trapdoor Springfield bullet seated in the chamber and came up with a tube length needed of 2 1/4". Paper dimensions work out to be 2 1/4" x 4". I roll my tubes and use a base plug formed around the end of a smaller diameter dowel and seat and glue it in the bottom of the tube. This then works out to be an OAL of 2.761" for the loaded cartridge. I can fit 4.7 cc of powder in the tube, which works out to be about 65 gr. of FFG according to my Lee Dipper Chart.
So I'm now going to use a tablet of Primary School paper, like they teach kids to write on in kindergarten and first grade, and some Potassium Nitrate and make my nitrated papers. Will cut the paper to size on a paper cutter and use the scraps for base plugs.
Right now I have 777 FFG, Goex FFFG, Pyrodex RS and Goex Pinnacle FFFG on hand. I think I'll start with the subs since the bullets I have on hand are pre-lubed with smokeless lube. I'm thinking of buying the Lee 405 gr. 459 HB mold to use with this rifle and My original Trapdoor Springfield.
If you have any more recommendations, please post them. That goes for everyone! Thanks again.
Preacher
-
ndnchf
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:03 pm
- Location: Virginia
If you call VTI about a gas check plate, be very specific about which plate you need. I just went through this with them for my Pedersoli '63 military rifle. The best I can determine there are at least 3 different Pedersoli gas check plates. The newest is rounded at the bottom so it can rotate to aid in removal, a previous style is rounded on the bottom also, but can't rotate much because of a cutout for the lever. Then there are the even older versions that are flat across the bottom, like the originals.
VTI doesn't list any '59/'63 parts on their website, but call them, they do keep many in stock. They carry the 2 newer style gas check plates, but not the older, flat bottom version - which is the one I need
VTI doesn't list any '59/'63 parts on their website, but call them, they do keep many in stock. They carry the 2 newer style gas check plates, but not the older, flat bottom version - which is the one I need
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
-
ndnchf
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:03 pm
- Location: Virginia
I got thinkin' about what I said. I may be mistaken about the differences in the newest Pedesoli gas check plate, I'm going on memory from one I looked at about 6 months ago. But there are definately at least 3 variations. Another thing that varies is the size of the hole in the block and corresponding size of the gas check ring that fits in the hole. The real early ones have a smaller hole.
All this experimenting they did with the gas check plate seems like they were trying to reinvent the wheel. None of their designs work as good as the original and Shiloh design.
All this experimenting they did with the gas check plate seems like they were trying to reinvent the wheel. None of their designs work as good as the original and Shiloh design.
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
-
bakerj
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:11 pm
- Location: arizona/illinois
Pedersoli info
Preacher
I've also got a Ped. 1863 Sporter in 45 caliber. If you also have 45 cal I can offer a little help. Pedersoli brass reusable cartridge case is 2.423" in length. The Pedersoli ringtail bullet sits in that case 0.154". If you are using a flat base bullet, paper cartridge should be 2.269 plus however much added length you want to glue to base of the bullet. Case width is 0.493. The 'cartridge' is far too big to load fully with powder so I load 55 grains FFg w/ 0.30 wad and cream of wheat.
Ped is now using washers behind the gas check plate to help seal. They recommend stacking 3 washers. Each washer is 0.003 thick. OD is 0.778 and ID is 0.552. Only problem is the force deforms the washers as they are not concentric to each other around the fire channel. I complained and Ped sent me about 50 washers.
For help with parts I would contract Dick Trenk; a Ped. rep out of Florida Dick is often on BPCR@groups.msn.com as Dicktrenk1.
I assume you know it is critical that you keep the sliding chamber sleeve free. Pedersoli's tool doesn't work but I made one out of 3/8 brass rod shaped like a hook to each in and pull the sleeve to the rear of the receiver when the slide (breech block) is out.
I have also not found a good paper, gave up on the Pedersoli nitrated papers as they left a burned tube in the chamber. I have had Subway sandwich papers recommended and I've bought some very light weight tracing paper. Have talked to Charlie Hahn. He doesn't have a tube for the 45 cal but was willing to 'prototype' a few for me to try. I haven't followed up on the offer yet. If you also have a 45 cal and would like to try them I would call Charlie back.
Anyway, hope something in the rambling helps. I recently fired a friend's 1863 Shiloh- much better design than our Pedersoli's.
I've also got a Ped. 1863 Sporter in 45 caliber. If you also have 45 cal I can offer a little help. Pedersoli brass reusable cartridge case is 2.423" in length. The Pedersoli ringtail bullet sits in that case 0.154". If you are using a flat base bullet, paper cartridge should be 2.269 plus however much added length you want to glue to base of the bullet. Case width is 0.493. The 'cartridge' is far too big to load fully with powder so I load 55 grains FFg w/ 0.30 wad and cream of wheat.
Ped is now using washers behind the gas check plate to help seal. They recommend stacking 3 washers. Each washer is 0.003 thick. OD is 0.778 and ID is 0.552. Only problem is the force deforms the washers as they are not concentric to each other around the fire channel. I complained and Ped sent me about 50 washers.
For help with parts I would contract Dick Trenk; a Ped. rep out of Florida Dick is often on BPCR@groups.msn.com as Dicktrenk1.
I assume you know it is critical that you keep the sliding chamber sleeve free. Pedersoli's tool doesn't work but I made one out of 3/8 brass rod shaped like a hook to each in and pull the sleeve to the rear of the receiver when the slide (breech block) is out.
I have also not found a good paper, gave up on the Pedersoli nitrated papers as they left a burned tube in the chamber. I have had Subway sandwich papers recommended and I've bought some very light weight tracing paper. Have talked to Charlie Hahn. He doesn't have a tube for the 45 cal but was willing to 'prototype' a few for me to try. I haven't followed up on the offer yet. If you also have a 45 cal and would like to try them I would call Charlie back.
Anyway, hope something in the rambling helps. I recently fired a friend's 1863 Shiloh- much better design than our Pedersoli's.
JimB
-
Preacher Clint
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:42 am
- Location: Greenwood, LA
You may be right about the Shiloh versus the Pedersoli. I had a Shiloh 50 cal. 1863 Carbine years back when I shot with the NSSA folks. No sliding chamber, etc.
I've worked out the paper cartridge dimensions. I've also rolled and loaded both all nitrated cartridges and some with bond paper bodies and nitrated bases. Am trying to locate onion skin paper. Haven't seen any in years since we stopped using carbon paper. I'm dating myself. LOL!
I've got some LRNFP 405 gr. flat base bullets and just bought and cast some Lee 459-405 HB bullets for my Trapdoor Springfield. I will have to get a sizing die in .459 to use them with my Sharps, as they are too tight in my tubes. At any rate, I am trying 55 grains of 3FG with 5-10 gr. grits or COW. Am looking forward to trying them in the next week or so when I get to the range.
Let me ask as well. Have you tried any of the BP substitutes in this rifle?
I've worked out the paper cartridge dimensions. I've also rolled and loaded both all nitrated cartridges and some with bond paper bodies and nitrated bases. Am trying to locate onion skin paper. Haven't seen any in years since we stopped using carbon paper. I'm dating myself. LOL!
I've got some LRNFP 405 gr. flat base bullets and just bought and cast some Lee 459-405 HB bullets for my Trapdoor Springfield. I will have to get a sizing die in .459 to use them with my Sharps, as they are too tight in my tubes. At any rate, I am trying 55 grains of 3FG with 5-10 gr. grits or COW. Am looking forward to trying them in the next week or so when I get to the range.
Let me ask as well. Have you tried any of the BP substitutes in this rifle?
-
Preacher Clint
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:42 am
- Location: Greenwood, LA
Bakerj:
Previous owner installed a wave washer, which may do what the Pedersoli washers do, without deformation. I've also toyed with the idea of the "o" ring mod that has been mentioned before. If the wave washer fails, then I'll give it a try.
Previous owner also had developed a two-piece brass insert to use 45/70 cutdown cartridges. So far, that is all I have tried, and I did not care for it as there are extraction problems. I'd be interested in your experiences with the Pedersoli cases and which bullets, etc. you have used. Might also be interested in Charlie Hahn's tubes as well, but I'm assuming they would require a different bullet mold from what I now have.
I tried the 45/70 with 55 grains of Pinnacle FFFG and the 405 flat base bullet. Major problem I had was fouling of the chamber insert to the point where I could no longer load the cartridges. That may have more to do with the cases and my loading as my 45-70 dies were not made for cutdown (shortened) cases. I've since removed the barrel and changed the insert back to the original chamber sleeve for use with paper cartridges or the Pedersoli cartridges.
Previous owner installed a wave washer, which may do what the Pedersoli washers do, without deformation. I've also toyed with the idea of the "o" ring mod that has been mentioned before. If the wave washer fails, then I'll give it a try.
Previous owner also had developed a two-piece brass insert to use 45/70 cutdown cartridges. So far, that is all I have tried, and I did not care for it as there are extraction problems. I'd be interested in your experiences with the Pedersoli cases and which bullets, etc. you have used. Might also be interested in Charlie Hahn's tubes as well, but I'm assuming they would require a different bullet mold from what I now have.
I tried the 45/70 with 55 grains of Pinnacle FFFG and the 405 flat base bullet. Major problem I had was fouling of the chamber insert to the point where I could no longer load the cartridges. That may have more to do with the cases and my loading as my 45-70 dies were not made for cutdown (shortened) cases. I've since removed the barrel and changed the insert back to the original chamber sleeve for use with paper cartridges or the Pedersoli cartridges.
-
bakerj
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:11 pm
- Location: arizona/illinois
Preacher,
Yes, I think I will try to find a wave washer, what are the dimensions of the one in your slide? I have had the o ring suggested but I have been afraid the heat would melt and vulcanize that to the gas check plate and slide (also that it would require machining of the slide).
The Ped brass sleeve works okay but there is no extractor so it has to be driven out (so you have a muzzle loader {or should I say unloader}). It is heavy enough that it doesn't deform. I've used it but I want to use the gun the way C Sharps intended-with a paper cartridge. At Dick Trenk's suggestion I tried Pyrodex hoping there would be less fouling. Because its hard to ignite it in the brass case he suggested 5 grains Goex and 50 grains Pyrodex (by volume). That didn't work too well. In 15 rounds the hammer was blown back to 1/2 cock twice and I was sprayed with gases. Trenk had said I could just seat a bullet and fill the chamber with loose powder! I don't think I want to do that as it probably would hold 100 grains. If you would like I will send you a Ped brass case and bullet (just send me a private message with your address).
Ped says the groove diameter is .458 so you should be okay sizing to 459. the Ped bullet is all I've used, it is pointed w/ 3 grooves and ringtailed weighing 370 gr. The driving bands are only .455 so maybe they do that to make sure it gets seated in the chamber with paper cartridge. The bullet is very soft so they must design it to obturate to the .458.
Fouling with paper or brass has been a big problem. With Goex I can only shoot 5-7 rounds before the slide so fouled I can barely lower it. Then I have take it out and spray with patch cleaner. Again, the Shiloh doesn't seem as bad. I think the problem is the chamber sleeve and the dead space in front of it in the chamber which aggravates fouling.
I don't think your bond paper will work. I've tried the lightest weight I could find and it still left a partial, burned shell in the chamber. Apparently the originals did too as the solder was instructed to stick his little finger in the chamber and pull it out (but there has to be a better way). For the back of the tube I just use cigarette paper, cut a little square and push it down using the dowel I use to form the tube (a little white glue at the end of the tube so the cig paper sticks). That works well and I have no ignition problems.
Yes, I think I will try to find a wave washer, what are the dimensions of the one in your slide? I have had the o ring suggested but I have been afraid the heat would melt and vulcanize that to the gas check plate and slide (also that it would require machining of the slide).
The Ped brass sleeve works okay but there is no extractor so it has to be driven out (so you have a muzzle loader {or should I say unloader}). It is heavy enough that it doesn't deform. I've used it but I want to use the gun the way C Sharps intended-with a paper cartridge. At Dick Trenk's suggestion I tried Pyrodex hoping there would be less fouling. Because its hard to ignite it in the brass case he suggested 5 grains Goex and 50 grains Pyrodex (by volume). That didn't work too well. In 15 rounds the hammer was blown back to 1/2 cock twice and I was sprayed with gases. Trenk had said I could just seat a bullet and fill the chamber with loose powder! I don't think I want to do that as it probably would hold 100 grains. If you would like I will send you a Ped brass case and bullet (just send me a private message with your address).
Ped says the groove diameter is .458 so you should be okay sizing to 459. the Ped bullet is all I've used, it is pointed w/ 3 grooves and ringtailed weighing 370 gr. The driving bands are only .455 so maybe they do that to make sure it gets seated in the chamber with paper cartridge. The bullet is very soft so they must design it to obturate to the .458.
Fouling with paper or brass has been a big problem. With Goex I can only shoot 5-7 rounds before the slide so fouled I can barely lower it. Then I have take it out and spray with patch cleaner. Again, the Shiloh doesn't seem as bad. I think the problem is the chamber sleeve and the dead space in front of it in the chamber which aggravates fouling.
I don't think your bond paper will work. I've tried the lightest weight I could find and it still left a partial, burned shell in the chamber. Apparently the originals did too as the solder was instructed to stick his little finger in the chamber and pull it out (but there has to be a better way). For the back of the tube I just use cigarette paper, cut a little square and push it down using the dowel I use to form the tube (a little white glue at the end of the tube so the cig paper sticks). That works well and I have no ignition problems.
JimB