Pedersoli Model 1859 & Shiloh Model 1863

[klw]

From a shooting point of view, what are the differences between these two? Obviously the Shiloh is a lot harder to get and cost substantially more. So what do you get for the longer wait and the significantly higher cost.

Also what about the effects of blackpowder fouling? Does the Shiloh handle that better?

[beowulf]

Made in the USA for one
Wood to metal finish
Quality of steel
Life time warranty
Trust me if you buy one of the Italian guns and then you see a Shiloh for sale you will either wish that you would had bought the Shiloh and then you will fork out the cash to buy the gun that you should have bought in the first place. Trust me on this one that's what happened to me and I sure I'm not the only one.

[klw]

It has proven to be very hard to get first hand experience about blackpowder fouling/freezeup on either the Pedersoli 1859 or the Shiloh 1863.

What little information I have been able to come up with is that the Pedersoli has a serious problem. That it freezes up almost immediately. BUT if you have the o-ring modification done THEN the Pedersoli works quite well. Probably a lot better than the Shiloh. Obviously there is more than just cutting the chamber in half and inserting an o-ring but...

Information on the Shiloh is almost non-existent. I don't understand why but it is. No one I know of is saying that they work quite well or don't work at all. There is just no information that I can find.

Hence the question.

[beowulf]

The problem that they had way back then, your going to experience the some problem today. the under lying store is; if you intend on shooting a string, you will need to do some preventive maintenance during that string to ensure all goes well. The biggest and most important thing is for you to find out what black powder burns the best and also the cleanest in the rifle you decide to purchase, and then like I stated before preventive maintenance, blowing, swabbing and brushing and wiping the block. That's all part of the fun with owning one of this rifles. Along with rolling your own and the nice groups you get after months of learning. If you feel that your not up to the task I would purchase the 1874. It's almost the some learning curve, but you can load with smokeless if you don't want the hassle of blowing, swabbing. I do have to say it is addicting and it does get under your skin when your rifle hold it own against a modern rifle and on these great days when all goes well, you out preform them.

[1stregtengr]

Here is my personal experience

At NSSA a few years ago I shot a Pedersoli carbine both in individual and team competition, using Swiss 3F, it was very rare that I could get a full string of 10 shots WITHOUT pounding on the lever to TRY and open the breach. In team competition the Pedersoli started to lock-up after about 4-5 shots. It was so bad I started using a Smith carbine, and sold the Pedersoli to a reenactor. I even tried taking a can of Ballistol to the line and spraying the breechblock..

bought a Shiloh and now shoot a string including sighters without any problems, in team competition I shoot the whole competition without removing the breechblock and cleaning it, thats about 15-20 shots, the last shot is as easy to open the breach as the first few. I could buy two Pedersolis for the price of one Shiloh, but there is no comparison on how they work.

Same powder, same bullet, same lube, two very different outcomes, buy a Shiloh, you'll never regret it!

tony, 1st regt engr

[klw]

Interesting! Thanks!

[Rich Siegel]

I also shoot a Shiloh '63 carbine in N-SSA compitition. Mine has the "O" ring modification. After 10 to 15 shots, I wipe the face of the breech off with a cleaning solution as well as passing a wet and dry patch down the bore. I have no problem shooting 20 to 30 rounds when doing the above. I know if the "O" ring breaks however, as the breech will become hard to open after 5 to 10 rounds. It takes 5 minutes to replace the rubber washer, clean the breech, and reassemble.

When I first started in the N-SSA 14 years ago, I shot a team member's unmodified Farmingdale Shiloh in one match. The gun had been well used. After 10 rounds, the breech would get sticky so I just poured cleaning solution into the breech block, wiped it off, and continues shooting another 10 to 15 rounds. Then did the same thing.

Another teammate has a Pedersoli carbine but has had the breech gas seal chromed. Works just as well as my Shiloh.

If you want info on a Shiloh '63 carbine for sale, send me an e-mail at blackdog1@suscom-maine.net.

Rich

[Todd Birch]

A while back, someone posted a source for square profile 'O' rings.

Anyone got it handy?

[Charlie Hahn]

Currently I shoot a Shiloh 1863. My modifications have followed a progression. I began with a square section o-ring behind the pressure plate. This was reasonably sucessful, but as I looked for tighter groups I realized the o-ring , spacers, or bellville washers that are being used all have the same issue. They limit the ability of the pressure plate to move forward. They are also compressed during firing, and the gap, however small will leak. In addition, fouling will get behind the plate and will cause it to bind. For N-SSA type shooting two things need to happen, the block needs to be soild in function, with a preloaded sleeve. There are several configurations this can take and it is up to the person doing the modification to configure the parts. A high pressure lubrication is needed that seals the sliding surface of the sleeve. This fix requires the barrel be taken out of the fram and machined, reassemblied, and the breech block fitted. Some additinal changes can be made to the block, but the stock pressure plate can be used. I plan to campaign two Sharps this year, my Shiloh and an Itialan model. The Itialan will have an additional chamber modification to work with a straight bullet. I plan to publish results later this winter.

[snapcap14]

A while back, someone posted a source for square profile 'O' rings.

Anyone got it handy?

MCMaster CArr pt# 207n70Q

[bakerj]

KLW, I have had a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps (45 cal) for 6 mos and have put 100 rounds through it. It has not been modified. I can get no more than 6-7 rounds (GOEX FFg) without the slide freezing up. With Pyrodex I can get 15-20 rounds (but I really want to shoot BP). Also, the action on the Pedersoli is larger than an 1874 Sharps (I assume the 1863 percussion gun was the same size) so it doesn't look as historically accurate.
I have never shot an 1863 Shiloh so I cannot comment on it. At this point I am not very happy with the Pedersoli- I think you would be much happier with the Shiloh. Yes, it will cost 2 to 3X but I am sure you will keep it forever- a lot longer than I intend to keep the Ped.!

[ndnchf]

FWIW - I have an early production 1859 Pedersoli 3 band infantry rifle. It shoots very accurately.

Pedersoli has gone through at least 3 different breech block/gas plate designs trying to get one that works well. None of them are made like the originals or Shilohs. The latest one is pretty good from what I've seen. But Shiloh's machining tolerances are much better and since they use the original design - it works.

For all the time and money Pedersoli has put into trying to develop a gas sealing system that works, they could have just used the original design and stepped up their tolerance and quality control in this area.

I have not had the gas seal machined for the o-ring yet, but I use the plumber's putty trick which works fairly well.

Bottom line - I would rather have a Shiloh, but for what I paid for the Pedersoli and the amount of shooting I do with it, its not bad.

[ndnchf]

I mentioned the plumber's putty method previously. For those interested, below is the text from another forum which discussed its use. I've tried it and it does work pretty well.
____________________________________________________________

I would like to suggest another easy and inexpensive solution for people who want to try solving the breech block problem by themselves. I have been using the "plumbers putty" solution for some time with great success. (This is another way of shimming actually.) Here is how it is done: take off the gas check plate, break off a piece of plumbers putty about the size of a pea and spread it evenly in the bottom of the breech block cavity which surrounds the flash exit, slowly press the gas check plate in place, stopping when the bottom edge is very slightly above flush with the block surface (it will take a little experimenting but generally about two thousandths from being completely seated) , remove the excess putty (the excess will be pushed into the cavity), fill the cavity with white lithium grease, install the breech block (it should be slightly difficult to push the block in place). Eventually the putty will have to be replaced but if you are getting 50-100 shots from an O ring before replacement, the putty will probably beat that by at least 100 shots. A small container of plumbers putty will last about a lifetime, so this also is a very inexpensive solution.

[klw]

That was helpful!

[loophole]

I bought an Armi Sport '63 rifle a couple of years ago, but didn't get serious about shooting it until a few weeks ago. Of course, it isn't a Shiloh--if I had the money there is no doubt that's the rifle I'd have. However, it is a good choice for someone with a limited budget and a need for instant gratification.
I tried coating the working parts of the breech block with anti-seize compound from Advance Auto--shot it about 30 rounds the other day, squirting a little hoppes black powder solvent on the front of the bolck every 6 or 7 rounds, with no problems opening or closing the breech.
With a bullet breech seated in the rifling, the breech holds 100 gr of FFg, which probably is too much for great accuracy with most bullets, and which makes recoil and fouling real factors.
Corn meal as a filler may be a good idea, but it is a pain to measure and load the stuff in the chamber before pouring in the powder. Paper cartridges may be the answer for reduced loads.
I'm not satisfied with the accuracy I've gotten so far--about 2'' at fifty yds off a bench with the Christmas tree bullet from Buffalo. HOwever, that bullet is about .003" under groove dia at the base. I've just gotten an NEI mold which throws a bullet .002 over grove dia. and I'm going to put a tang sight on the rifle.