I know that I'm slow. Negative talent I suppose. And when I really don't understand something I just keep asking questions. A lot of people find that really annoying! Sorry!
But I still don't understand how either the Pedersoli model 1859 nor the Shiloh model 1863 breech sealing mechanisms works. Could someone take digital pictures and post them showing the guts, how they are disassembled, etc? Yes I know it is a bother but I can not be the only sole who is lost here.
Pedersoli is about to switch to chrome plating of the main parts. I don't know any of the details but I have confirmed that. And Charlie Hahn is into breech alterations to improve sealing. This is an extension of Art Crowley's o-ring work. And Pedersoli has brass cases which, I gather, don't help much.
I asked the U.S. Pedersoli representative for help here. That guy is unfriendly. So I've asked Pedersoli Italy. And yes I've talked to Richard Beauchamp. He is always polite and helpful but he doesn't know much about this particular subject.
So any chance of digital pictures?
And while we are on it, what is the difference between the model 1859 and the model 1863?
Gas Seal
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ndnchf
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Well I tell ya, this is not an easy thing to explain. I'm no expert either but I'll try to covey my understanding since no one else has jumped in.
The gas seal plate is moved forward to seal against the breech by a pressure differential. On the rear of the gas check plate, an extension fits tightly into a recess in the block. This extension tapers down towards the rear to almost a knife edge. When the charge is fired, gases expand into the recess, applying pressure on the taper. Because of the angle of the taper, pressure is applied in 2 directions, forward and outward.
The block moves forward because the recess area is slightly larger in diameter than the chamber. The pressure from the blast is equal thoughout the chamer/breech block area. But the larger cavity behind the gas plate creates more surface area for the pressure to push on (in otherwords there are more pounds per square inch on the back of the gas plate than on the front). This causes the gas seal to move forward. This description is for original and Shiloh rifles.
The knife edge at the back of the taper also expands out forming a tight seal against the sides of the breech block recess, creating a seal.
I have a photo someone sent me of a Shiloh disassembled, showing the gas plate with knife edge extension (I don't know how to post the photo, but I'll e-mail it to you if you PM me your addess). This one has been modifed to take an O-ring. The knife edge seats up against the o-ring. The O-ring is to the right of the gas plate, you can see the imprint of the knife edge on the o-ring. I don't know if this is really necessary on a Shiloh, but this fellow installed one.
Pedersoli rifles don't work the same, in fact they generally don't work very well. The gas plate extension on a pedersoli is not tapered, it has a straight hole with no taper. Instead of coming to a knife edge, it ends in a blunt, flat surface. There is little, if any pressure differential so the seal doesn't move forward much. Since there is no knife edge taper at the rear, there is no outward expansion to seal the sides either.
The so-called sliding chamber sleeve on originals was not a loose sleeve like Pedersoli uses. It was a tight fit, intended to be moved rearward with a tool, as need to take up wear/erosion of the gas plate. My understanding is that Shiloh does not use a sliding sleeve, they rely on tighter tolerances and better materials to maintain a close fit for the gas seal plate.
Pedersoli has been through at least 3, going on 4 variations of the breech block/gas check plate, trying to get something that works. I cannot understand why they didn't just spend a little more money on quality control and materials to duplicate the original design. The original (and Shiloh) design works very well if cleaned and lubricated properly.
I can't speak about Armi Sports, I've never examined one.
Well, this has been my understanding as best I can explain it. If I have something wrong, I'm all ears to learn
The gas seal plate is moved forward to seal against the breech by a pressure differential. On the rear of the gas check plate, an extension fits tightly into a recess in the block. This extension tapers down towards the rear to almost a knife edge. When the charge is fired, gases expand into the recess, applying pressure on the taper. Because of the angle of the taper, pressure is applied in 2 directions, forward and outward.
The block moves forward because the recess area is slightly larger in diameter than the chamber. The pressure from the blast is equal thoughout the chamer/breech block area. But the larger cavity behind the gas plate creates more surface area for the pressure to push on (in otherwords there are more pounds per square inch on the back of the gas plate than on the front). This causes the gas seal to move forward. This description is for original and Shiloh rifles.
The knife edge at the back of the taper also expands out forming a tight seal against the sides of the breech block recess, creating a seal.
I have a photo someone sent me of a Shiloh disassembled, showing the gas plate with knife edge extension (I don't know how to post the photo, but I'll e-mail it to you if you PM me your addess). This one has been modifed to take an O-ring. The knife edge seats up against the o-ring. The O-ring is to the right of the gas plate, you can see the imprint of the knife edge on the o-ring. I don't know if this is really necessary on a Shiloh, but this fellow installed one.
Pedersoli rifles don't work the same, in fact they generally don't work very well. The gas plate extension on a pedersoli is not tapered, it has a straight hole with no taper. Instead of coming to a knife edge, it ends in a blunt, flat surface. There is little, if any pressure differential so the seal doesn't move forward much. Since there is no knife edge taper at the rear, there is no outward expansion to seal the sides either.
The so-called sliding chamber sleeve on originals was not a loose sleeve like Pedersoli uses. It was a tight fit, intended to be moved rearward with a tool, as need to take up wear/erosion of the gas plate. My understanding is that Shiloh does not use a sliding sleeve, they rely on tighter tolerances and better materials to maintain a close fit for the gas seal plate.
Pedersoli has been through at least 3, going on 4 variations of the breech block/gas check plate, trying to get something that works. I cannot understand why they didn't just spend a little more money on quality control and materials to duplicate the original design. The original (and Shiloh) design works very well if cleaned and lubricated properly.
I can't speak about Armi Sports, I've never examined one.
Well, this has been my understanding as best I can explain it. If I have something wrong, I'm all ears to learn
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
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klw
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loophole
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:15 pm
- Location: asheville
I've spent some time with my Armi Sport lately, and maybe some one is interested in how it works. It has a sliding sleeve in the chamber which appears to be pushed to the rear by the pressure of the burning charge.
There is a gas seal plate set in a cylindrical hole in the breech block--looks a lot like what ndnchf describes in the Shiloh, with the taper to a knife edge at the rear of the plate.
It appears that as the pressure of the burning charge pushes the sleeve to the rear, it also pushes the plate forward against the sleeve to form a seal.
After firing 75 rounds or so, the sleeve has made a faint indentation in the plate (which appears to be very hard) where the two surfaces are pressed together on firing.
So far the gun works very well--no noticible blow-by--but I think I'll order another plate in case the indentation gets more noticible and seems likely to cause problems.
In the modified guns, where does the O ring go?
There is a gas seal plate set in a cylindrical hole in the breech block--looks a lot like what ndnchf describes in the Shiloh, with the taper to a knife edge at the rear of the plate.
It appears that as the pressure of the burning charge pushes the sleeve to the rear, it also pushes the plate forward against the sleeve to form a seal.
After firing 75 rounds or so, the sleeve has made a faint indentation in the plate (which appears to be very hard) where the two surfaces are pressed together on firing.
So far the gun works very well--no noticible blow-by--but I think I'll order another plate in case the indentation gets more noticible and seems likely to cause problems.
In the modified guns, where does the O ring go?
If at first you don't secede, try, try again.
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ndnchf
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The O-ring goes in the breech block, at the bottom of the hole. I put the photo on my webshots page. I'll try to post a link to it. In the photo, the O-ring is seen to the right of the gas plate. Note that it is indented from the knife edge pressing against it.
My Pedersoli also has the loose fitting sliding chamber sleeve. Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see how it helps since there is no pressure differential to cause it to press back against the gas plate
My Pedersoli also has the loose fitting sliding chamber sleeve. Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see how it helps since there is no pressure differential to cause it to press back against the gas plate
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
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loophole
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You pose an interesting question--I assume that the burning charge begins pushing unburned powder and bullet down the barrel, while creating pressure radially in the sleeve and also pushing the burned gases and residue in the rear of the charge, as well as the sleeve, back toward the breechblock. However, if I'd been worth a damn at physics and chemistry in college, I'd be retired on a fat pension from some lucrative scientic job, with a whole collection of Shiloh rifles.
I can tell you that the impression of the rear of the sleeve on the front of the plate appeared after fining 60 or 70 rounds. I suppose it is possible that it is caused by the plate moving forward against the rear of the sleeve.
In which case, I don't know what function the sleeve would serve. Any ideas?
I can tell you that the impression of the rear of the sleeve on the front of the plate appeared after fining 60 or 70 rounds. I suppose it is possible that it is caused by the plate moving forward against the rear of the sleeve.
In which case, I don't know what function the sleeve would serve. Any ideas?
If at first you don't secede, try, try again.
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ndnchf
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I believe there have been some Italian Sharps (possibly Pedersoli, but I don't recall now) made without a movable gas seal plate in the breech block. In otherwords the breech block was solid. These relied soley on a movable chamber sleeve to seal. What we are seeing in many cases is a combination of the two movable parts.
N-SSA guys are leading the way with updates to the sealing system. These guys are making two piece chamber sleeves with an O-ring between the 2 parts. Others are making new gas seal plates and even new breech blocks. These mods are mostly aimed at the Italian mades Sharps. Shilohs rarely have the gas leakage issues, or at least not to the extent of the imported guns.
N-SSA guys are leading the way with updates to the sealing system. These guys are making two piece chamber sleeves with an O-ring between the 2 parts. Others are making new gas seal plates and even new breech blocks. These mods are mostly aimed at the Italian mades Sharps. Shilohs rarely have the gas leakage issues, or at least not to the extent of the imported guns.
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
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HvyMtl
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AS ndnchf stated about the old Peds. is true. I have one of these 1859 's and the breech blocks are solid, and there is a moveable sleeve in the breech. This rifle is one of my most accurate out to 125 yds. I use Cleanshot instead of BP becuase it shoots the best with it. The interesting thing about this rifle is the sights were indexed wrong and the barrel had to be screwed into the receiver further. This tightened up the breech block to the barrel which might explain why it is so accurate.
Ken
Ken
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Todd Birch
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'O' Rings
ndnchf
Very thoughtful of you to post that picture. Gotta get me some of those 'O' rings! Someone else gave me a supplier once, and I lost the name. Where do you get yours?
Right now, I'm tryi g something new for me. I'm filling the block cavity with a lithium grease before prsssing in the gas plate. We'll see what happens .....
A few years back, the late Bobby Bayles (some of you will remember him from this forum) put together a postal shoot for '63s. He called it the "Sharps Invitational Shoot" - or S.H.I.T. Shoot for fun. I still have a copy of the rules.
Hvymtl was one of the competitors with his Ped as was Gregg Martin with his Shiloh carbine. I believe that Bobby used a Garrett.
Maybe it's time we did this again, once it warms up. The course consisted of 5 rds at 50 yds off hand, 5 at 100, 5 at 150 and 5 at 200. I think we allowed x-sticks or bench for the longer ranges. I'd have to check.
We were all surprised at the accuracy we got and you were allowed to do whatever it took - swabbing between shots, etc. No restrictions on calibre or choice or propellant, BP or equivalent.
Might offer a carbine class if there are at least three carbine shooters.
An alternative would be to shoot the Berdan qualifying match of 10 shots/50" of string measure at 200 yds. That is, total length of string measuring from centre of shot to centre of target not to exceed 5" per shot.
Shortest string measure wins.
Steve Garbe also runs a Berdan-type match and we could ask him for his rules.
I know guys who can't do this with a modern scoped rifle.
Very thoughtful of you to post that picture. Gotta get me some of those 'O' rings! Someone else gave me a supplier once, and I lost the name. Where do you get yours?
Right now, I'm tryi g something new for me. I'm filling the block cavity with a lithium grease before prsssing in the gas plate. We'll see what happens .....
A few years back, the late Bobby Bayles (some of you will remember him from this forum) put together a postal shoot for '63s. He called it the "Sharps Invitational Shoot" - or S.H.I.T. Shoot for fun. I still have a copy of the rules.
Hvymtl was one of the competitors with his Ped as was Gregg Martin with his Shiloh carbine. I believe that Bobby used a Garrett.
Maybe it's time we did this again, once it warms up. The course consisted of 5 rds at 50 yds off hand, 5 at 100, 5 at 150 and 5 at 200. I think we allowed x-sticks or bench for the longer ranges. I'd have to check.
We were all surprised at the accuracy we got and you were allowed to do whatever it took - swabbing between shots, etc. No restrictions on calibre or choice or propellant, BP or equivalent.
Might offer a carbine class if there are at least three carbine shooters.
An alternative would be to shoot the Berdan qualifying match of 10 shots/50" of string measure at 200 yds. That is, total length of string measuring from centre of shot to centre of target not to exceed 5" per shot.
Shortest string measure wins.
Steve Garbe also runs a Berdan-type match and we could ask him for his rules.
I know guys who can't do this with a modern scoped rifle.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Todd Birch
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S.H.I.T Shoot
Found the rules. I was wrong on the name of the shoot.
It was 'Sharps Honourary International Target' Shoot. 'International' because I was the token non-American.
The distances were:
5 rds @ 50 yds, offhand
10 rds @ 100 yds, any position
10 rds @ 200 yds, any position
100 and 200 yd shooting done from any position excluding bench rest.
I think in the end we changed that to allow bench at 200 as Berdan allowed bench to qualify for his unit.
We used NRA targets. In addition to score, we used 'extreme group' size - measuring centre to centre on the furthest apart shots.
It was 'Sharps Honourary International Target' Shoot. 'International' because I was the token non-American.
The distances were:
5 rds @ 50 yds, offhand
10 rds @ 100 yds, any position
10 rds @ 200 yds, any position
100 and 200 yd shooting done from any position excluding bench rest.
I think in the end we changed that to allow bench at 200 as Berdan allowed bench to qualify for his unit.
We used NRA targets. In addition to score, we used 'extreme group' size - measuring centre to centre on the furthest apart shots.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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ndnchf
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- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:03 pm
- Location: Virginia
Use of an O-ring MAY require a minor modification to the cas seal. There needs to be enough clearance for the o-ring to fit, yet still be compresed a little. The rear of the seal (knife edge) may need to be shortened so the gap is about 2/3s the diameter of the o-ring. That allows the o-ring to be slightly compressed by the gas seal when in battery.
I have not done this to my Pedersoli yet, but many people have. I have been using the plumbers putty with pretty good results. o-rings are available at any good hardware store.
I have not done this to my Pedersoli yet, but many people have. I have been using the plumbers putty with pretty good results. o-rings are available at any good hardware store.
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.
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Todd Birch
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'O' rings
The other 'O' rings I was referring to had a square profile.
I don't suppose it makes any difference once it is compressed.
I don't mind removing a little metal from the gas plate. The worst thing is that if I overdo it, I'm buying another one.
I don't suppose it makes any difference once it is compressed.
I don't mind removing a little metal from the gas plate. The worst thing is that if I overdo it, I'm buying another one.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"
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Smokin Gun
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- Location: Mojave Desert, CA
- Contact:
Where can I get a Gas Check sleeve extractor tool for an 1863 Armi Sport .54 Sharps paper cutter? I saw one somewhere can't find it now. About ready to make do with this Carbine and want to be prepared.
Thanks,
SG
Thanks,
SG
"My Favorite Rifles '63 Sharps Cav .54 papercutter, '73 Springfield TD, & H&R Buffalo Classic in .45-70"
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ndnchf
- Posts: 258
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- Location: Virginia
If you are refering to the chamber sleeve, call Taylors, hey have them
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products ... ccessories
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products ... ccessories
Never trust a man who wears both suspenders AND a belt.