1863 Questions.........

Support for the 1863 shooter. Discussions of powders, loads, bullets, etc.
kermit
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

1863 Questions.........

Post by kermit » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:13 pm

Ok here we go with this topic again.....It seems there is a lot of topic on the Pedersoli 1863 Sharps gas seal plate and barrel sleeve binding..........well I have one too..... I just purchased a Ped. 1863 .54 Sporting Rifle from Track of the Wolf. The rifle is fine in fit and finish with fancy stock. The problem is that the barrel sleeve is stuck in place. Yes I have soaked it, and no I haven't used the extractor tool sold to move it fore and aft, soon as it arrives I will use this tool to free it, I hope. Question #1, How far does this bushing (sleeve) move, fore and aft? The bushing is flush with the breech face now and is a tight fit to the breech face gas seal plate when the action is closed. Question #2, how much doe's the breech gas seal plate move when the rifle is fired, the plate is snug now after removing and cleaning residue from behind this plate. It was hard to remove and reinstalled with a snug fit. Question #3, when I removed this plate, I found that in the breech block, the area where the lever toggle slot is milled had a hole at the bottom that was milled through the other side, the pressure plate side. Seems to me that this hole, when the rifle was fired, the gas that forces the gas seal plate forward would open a gap and allow gasses to flow out of this hole.....is there something I'm missing, or has my breech block been milled to far (deep) in this area causing gas to escape into the action. I really like this rifle, been wanting one for a long time, but It must function as designed. Please advice..........kermit

Todd Birch
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

If it ain't broke .....

Post by Todd Birch » Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:46 pm

Kermit

How about applying the KISS principle - keep it simple, stupid.

In other words, how does the rifle shoot 'as is'? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

kermit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

Post by kermit » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:06 pm

Ok...........but I don't know if its broke! Is the hole that is milled through the toggle link slot, that goes through the other side, the gas plate side, right or wrong. When I cleaned up the rifle, there was a lot of residue in this area. It seems to me that this area was factory milled to deep, and cut through the other side. This is all factory, as it has been case hardened to match. I have notified Pedersoli customer service of this situation, but no response from them. It just don't look right to me. Seems I'm on my own here. I think I will tig weld the hole up, then mill off the excess to clean everything up. Then soak, push, pull, and twist the barrel sleeve until I free it up. If not, then I will unscrew the barrel, apply heat, and do what ever it takes to get it to move. The way I see it, the barrel sleeve is forced back into the gas seal plate at the same time the gas seal plate is forced forward onto the barrel sleeve, all at the instant of ignition. This combination action is supposed to provide a seal, keeping powder gasses from escaping the breech area. Ya...I know, should have bought a Shiloh...............

Kirk
Moderator
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Location: Big Timber

Post by Kirk » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:33 am

Kermit

I'm just throwing out a guess here because I have never had one of these type guns in my hands. I do know that some of them did not have moveable sleeves, that was told to me from Dick Trenk. As far as the block goes, the plate is to move when fired and everything should be completely sealed, no way for fire to escape.

Kirk,

kermit
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

1863

Post by kermit » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:49 am

Thanks so much. Any information on the function of these guns is welcome. Looking at the breech end of the barrel it appears to be a sleeve. I've contacted Pedersoli again, still no response. I made contact with a few others that sell these rifles, but no useful information. This forum, where we can exchange information is my only hope. Its to nice a gun to be a wall hanger. I need to talk to someone who has one of these guns. WHO OUT THERE HAS ONE OF THESE GUNS?

John Bly
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:32 pm
Location: Stephens City, VA

Post by John Bly » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:15 am

Contact Charlie Hahn in Berlin MD. He knows as much as anyone about the problems you have. His e-mail is etb9601@aol.com. His phone is 410-208-4736. He keeps a lot of percussion guns shooting for guys in the N-SSA.
"Perfection consists not so much in doing extraordinary things as in doing ordinary things extraordinarily well"

WV SCROUNGER
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:38 pm

'63 breechsleeve

Post by WV SCROUNGER » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:31 am

The pedersolis all have sliding breech sleeves. Some of the I.A.B sharps have them some do not....Even in the models that DO Not have the sleeve ...from the breech end it looks as though a sleeve Is there!
First ..You will need the expensive sleeve removal tool from pedersoli.
Plug your barrel ( plumbers putty may work) a few inches from the breech. What I did was take a ziplock baggie and slipped it over the muzzle ...then I taped it with electrical tape,,,,I put the muzzle into a small bucket and stood the rifle in a corner of the room. Then I filled the barrel completely with Kerosene and let it soak for 4 days.
Then I inserted the pedersoli breech sleve tool and tightened it up.
The sleeve pulled out with little force.
You must remember to clean this sleeve TOTALLY ( front & back, top and bottom) WHEN DONE SHOOTING....or it will freeze up.....no doubt.
I now have learned to coat the sleeve front and back with automotive Anti-seize GREASE....THIS will keep you shooting much longer without the sleeve freezing up due to fouling. Still...it must be totally cleaned when done shooting and anti seize re- applied....( it's an inherant part of shooting a Sharps).......deal with it.
One more note: dont bother even purchasing one of thos cheapie sleeve removal tools ....get the tool from Pedersoli.
Pedersoli Does answer email....although it does take time...
but be prepared....thier answer is sometime confusing...I guess it looses something in the translation from Italian to English??nonetheless they Do answer.

Charlie Hahn
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Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Maryland

Post by Charlie Hahn » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:18 pm

May I ask if your gas check plate is the newer design with about a 3/8th diameter hole, and straight to the back with those pesky steel washers?

The bleed out hole you describe is an after thought as I see it and has little practical application.

On these units I have been converting them to a solid block and getting rid of the moving gas check plate.

As for you barrel sleeve, you may or may not be able to get this out. If the chamber is deeper than 1 inch the sleeve is longer than the mortise, and can't be remover without taking the barrel off the frame.

When converting to solid I split this sleeve and make the front portion non-removable with a shot section at the back that floats and provides the seal.

I don't recommend using either never seise or white lithium grease, both get hard in our shooting environment. I would suggest using Extreme High pressure grease, part number 1392k31 from Mcmaster.com

Most of these guns can shoot un-modified, but not very well. If you make a few adjustments as described here I think you will see a marked improvement in function and at the business end.

Charlie
Charlie Hahn

kermit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

Post by kermit » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:20 pm

Thanks Charlie Hahn. My gas check plate has about a 3/8" dia. hole, but does not have any steel washers. When you say the bleed out hole is an after thought, are you saying that it is factory milled on purpose? I can't but think that this hole would allow powder and gasses to escape into the action. I NEED to know if this is or is not proper. I wish to weld up this hole, but before I do, I need to know if it is supposed to be there.......Any help from anyone who has the Pedersoli 1863, please advise.... I've looked all over for the Pedersoli barrel sleeve tool in .54 to free up my barrel sleeve, no luck....

kermit
Last edited by kermit on Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Charlie Hahn
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Maryland

Post by Charlie Hahn » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:00 am

Just so we are on the same page, send me a picture of the area so I can advise.

Just a note. When I convert these to solid I block everything and re-machine the fire path. The only opening I leave is the nipple and vent at the chamber. Nothing moves but the o-ring loaded sleeve. The only leak or bleed down is the nipple to hammer fit.

I any case I would not consider welding on these guns. My reason for this is I just don't know the base metal. and I don't like to change the structure of the base metal with out this information.

Here is my email.
etb9601@gmail.com

Charlie
410-208-4736
Charlie Hahn

Charlie Hahn
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Maryland

Post by Charlie Hahn » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:00 am

Just so we are on the same page, send me a picture of the area so I can advise.

Just a note. When I convert these to solid I block everything and re-machine the fire path. The only opening I leave is the nipple and vent at the chamber. Nothing moves but the o-ring loaded sleeve. The only leak or bleed down is the nipple to hammer fit.

I any case I would not consider welding on these guns. My reason for this is I just don't know the base metal. and I don't like to change the structure of the base metal with out this information.

Here is my email.
etb9601@gmail.com

Charlie
410-208-4736
Charlie Hahn

kermit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

Thanks again Charlie Hahn......

Post by kermit » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:00 pm

Photos sent to your e-mail

kermit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

Pedersolei 1863

Post by kermit » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:30 pm

I'm starting to get responses from a few U.S. Pedersoli distributors and reps from a list I got from the Pedersoli web site. Seems the Pedersoli factory in Italy is closed for the month of August...........We will see what response I get when they go back to work......I'll keep you informed on my progress to get this rifle shooting. What I'm hoping for is a new breech block assembly.

Saga to be continued..............kermit

kermit
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:00 am
Location: SANTA FE, NM

1863 up and running..........

Post by kermit » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:07 pm

Thank you all for your assistance in this matter. Thanks to Mr. Pedersoli and thanks to Richard Beauchamp at flintlocks who was instrumental in getting thing rolling. What I ended up with is a new breech block assembly, new link and link screw, and the .54 tool to move the breech sleeve. All above at an extreme discounted price, (shipping) from Italy.

Once again, thanks for all who helped out. kermit

I fitted all the above without to much trouble, just a little stoning along the sides of the breech block. This breech block assembly is fitted with the new style gas plate with milled slots along the sides, which make for easy removal for cleaning.

tljack
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:01 pm
Location: Helena Montana

More Sliding Breech Sleeves

Post by tljack » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:26 am

I addition to my Shilo and Pedersoli 1874s I have an 1859 Berdan Army made by Armi. Overall it is a nice gun but it also has a Sliding Breece Sleave like the 1863 Pedersoli. I always do my best to clean it and until recently have not had any problems. Awhile back it got stuck and I could not get it free. Today I received a tool from Chiappa Firearms LTD. It seems well made and is all brass. ($ 19.22 shipped) Chiappa refers to it as a "Floating Chamber Extractor". I intalled it into the rifle and nothing would budge. I left it in the barrel as a plug and saturated everything with Kriol all evening. A little while ago It broke loose and is now moving like it should. I cleaned it carefully and put lubriplate on it for now.

My question is this. Now that I have it free, how do I keep it free? How should I clean it. I thought it was clean but obviously it was not clean enough. I would love to hear suggestions.

Yes I know I could sell it and buy a Shilo 1863 and I would not have to deal with it as they do not have this part. I like this rifle and besides, Shilo does not make a 1859 Berdan. :D

I will appreciate any advise.

Thank you

Terry

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