1863 Carbine

Support for the 1863 shooter. Discussions of powders, loads, bullets, etc.
George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:51 pm

I wouldn't say that the use of tubes is "offensive," just a bit silly since it defeats the purpose of purchasing a paper cartridge Sharps in the first place. Much simpler to start out with a 50-70 instead if you must have a cartridge. It is about the same as buying a black powder rifle and then shooting smokless powder in it. I have a half dozen 50-70's to mess with when I want a cartridge (which is most of the time). Also a Maynard carbine if I want something using a cartridge with outside priming.

George

Todd Birch
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by Todd Birch » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:27 pm

And I thought Iiked 50-70s ..... one more I'd like to have is a RB in 50-70, a carbine and not a NY State Militia model.
The late Dave H. of Lone Star rifles turned me onto the cartridge. He highly recommended it for hunting and a CAS/plinker. He was right.

The same weight of lead and powder in a 45-70 of similar weight rattles me, but I find the 50-70 a pussy cat.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:24 am

The 50-70 is a great cartridge, as is the 45-70. I have both. Since all but one of my 50-70s are originals, I have confined my bullet weight to that for which they are designed (450 grain). I use the Lyman 515141 bullet lubed in a .516 die. For the Shiloh (Farmingdale military rifle) I size the bullets to .512; but the larger ones work just as well. The New York Remington takes some getting use to, but the carbine I have shoots great. The biggest problem is that I can't get a lighter trigger spring from Womack for it so the trigger is pretty fierce. They are a bit more complicated, but that was what the army wanted. Too bad too, as it really wasn't necessary. I have a pair of the 1870 Navy Rifles and Womack's trigger spring really lightens up the trigger pull.

As for recoil; I really don't notice much difference between the 45-70 and the 50-70. Probably more depends on the rifle being used than the cartridge.

George

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snapcap14
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by snapcap14 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:45 pm

George Babits wrote:If you need to use "tubes" in a precussion Sharps you should have bought a 50-70 infantry rifle or carbine instead of an 1863 precussion. Or get an original Maynard, Smith, or Burnside carbine. They were all designed to use a cartridge case with outside priming. The 1863 Sharps is designed for use with a paper or linen combustable cartridge, to shoot it otherwise is a perversion no matter how much more convient it may seem. By the way, the extra KNO3 from the paper makes them shoot cleaner too.

George
the tubes they are talking about are lite cardboard and go out the barrel like confetti . they are a short to rolling your own.
Standing on the ROCK
14th VA. Cav.
N-SSA

George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:38 pm

Oh that is interesting. For some reason I was thinking they were made of brass. My "new" Farmingdale 1863 infantry rifle got here yesterday and now I'm looking for nitrated papers to get started. I hope to find time in the next day or two. I'll just use loos powder for now. I need to make a dowell for rolling the paper cartridges on but just haven't time to get it done. Went to Lowes (in Missoula) to get some Spectracide Stump-Out. Apparently it is only available on line. Par for the course. I guess BigBrother wants to know who is buying KNO3.

George

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snapcap14
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by snapcap14 » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:35 pm

[quote="George Babits"]Oh that is interesting. For some reason I was thinking they were made of brass. My "new" Farmingdale 1863 infantry rifle got here yesterday and now I'm looking for nitrated papers to get started. I hope to find time in the next day or two. I'll just use loos powder for now. I need to make a dowell for rolling the paper cartridges on but just haven't time to get it done. Went to Lowes (in Missoula) to get some Spectracide Stump-Out. Apparently it is only available on line. Par for the course. I guess BigBrother wants to know who is buying KNO3.

[ gave up on nitrating my paper. Go get some sally perm papers at walmart. I have a couple pounds of kn03 left on my shelf for 4 yrs now. since i went to charlies tubes i use plan perm paper to close the ends
off. flash burns right thru it. and when I do roll my own i do not nitrate it.
charlies tubes are like 7 to 10 cents ea. depending on the length you need I believe.
Standing on the ROCK
14th VA. Cav.
N-SSA

George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:49 am

I dug out my notes from back in the 80's when I was shooting my first Shiloh 1863 rifle. I had plenty of nitrated papers and rolled the cartridges most oft he time. But, I also shot the rifle with loose powder occassionally. My notes say there was a lot more fouling with the loose powder than there was with the nitrated paper. I was corresponding with a chemist back then and he thought that the extra KNO3 from the paper gave more complete powder combustion so there less fouling. If you don't want that KNO3 sitting on your shelf Snapcap, feel free to send it to me.

George

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snapcap14
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by snapcap14 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:47 am

let check see exactly how much I have. will let you know. since you asked first you have first dibs.
Standing on the ROCK
14th VA. Cav.
N-SSA

George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:19 pm

That would be great. I know that Spectracide Stump-Out is 97% pure (at least according to the MSDS sheets) and it is around $6.00/pound. Both Home Despot and Lowes say they carry it. Looked for it at Lowes in Missoula (closest one) and they don't stock it; have to order on line. Doesn't make any sense to me, but that's the new world odrer.

Visited Charlie Hahn's site and looked at his conversions because the cavity in the block of the 1863 I just got looked like it was "plugged." Pulled the gas check and it was simply a thick conical neoprene faucet washer upside down on the flash hole. Must have been a way of keeping the powder from falling back into the cavity is all I can think of. I'll probably pull it off, but might give it a try. Found the instruction booklet that came with my previous 1863 and it says with loose powder to drop the bullet in and then "fill" the chamber to the breech block. Don't think I want to do that - - weighs out to 120 grains with FFg GOEX. Somewhere I read that SubWay sandwich wrapping is a cood cartridge paper and have a couple of sheets of that I can try.

George

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snapcap14
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by snapcap14 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:13 pm

Subway works too. Some even use news print. Adding machine paper works too. I have had 3 type of conversions done. On 63"s I've ownd. 1 was a hose type washer behind the gas check. They flat sand the back of the check to make room for the washer.1 was a split sleeve w an o ring. By Bobby hoyte and one by Charlie Hahn same as the hoyte. They all improve the seal. Mine will shoot all day. W/o cleaning. Only problem I ever had was on a very hot day at a team match. I over heated it to the point the block would not open. Unitil it cooled down. Block was hot to the point you could not touch it..
Standing on the ROCK
14th VA. Cav.
N-SSA

George Babits
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:53 am

Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:27 am

I rolled a few cartridges out of subway paper last night. Haven't quite got the mandrel the correct size which mahes it difficult. That subway stuff is awfully flimsey and hard to work with. The nitrated papers I worked with 30 years ago were made much better cartridges, and was a lot easier to work with. But, I did have one of the aluminum dowels made by Shiloh to roll them on. I am not using the "correct" buller, but the Lyman 54 caliber hollow base. I found out with the first paper cartridge Shiloh that it worked great. I never really had any leakage with that first rifle and will probably remove the "washer" from this one before shooting it. Only time I ever had that first one freeze up was due to cold rather than heat. Was up in Montana late fall and it was not too warm. A little alcohol loosened it up, but it was time to quit for sure.

George

Jay Yuskaitis
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by Jay Yuskaitis » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:23 pm

Nice to see a few posts on the '63. I have a #3 Sporting Rifle in 54 caliber. I love Charlie Hahn's tubes. I have 3 different lengths for different charges. I did make my own for a while, and still do on occasion, it's not worth the effort for me at my advanced age to "roll my own". I use a "Hahns Brooks" bullet along with a "Rapine" design. Just to let you know, I did breach seat a bullet and fill the chamber with powder, one time. Enjoy the Shiloh '63's. A fun thing, and spend the time with it, and be surprised with its accuracy. Jay Y.

Todd Birch
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by Todd Birch » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:59 pm

I gotta try this rubber washer in the chamber recess idea. I winder if I can pick up what would work at a hardware plumbing counter ..... ?
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

George Babits
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Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by George Babits » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:21 pm

Hi Todd,

I had the Shiloh out a couple of days ago. Used my own cartridges. I had made 5 from subway paper and 5 from newspaper. Both worked fine and there was no paper residue in the chamber without nitrating them. I was using 75 grains of FFFg for the load and Lyman 54 caliber hollow base. I had used that bullet 30 years ago and it worked very well. Someone did a really good trigger job on that rifle back along the line. This rifle was made around 1975 or 6 from the serial number. The gascheck plate is a bit loose and opening go pretty stiff after 6 or 7 rounds. Maybe that was the "why" of the neoprene washer. When I can get some KNO3 I will nitrate the paper because, if I remember right, the rifle I had before shot a lot cleaner with nitrated cartridges. Meanwhile I'll keep it simple and use the subway paper. If I can find time to roll some more cartridges I'll have it out to shoot in a day or two. Very pleasent to shoot and I was able to keep them all in the 6" bull at 80 yards sitting. That is with well worn eyes and open sights.

George

Todd Birch
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

Re: 1863 Carbine

Post by Todd Birch » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:52 pm

A few years back I got into a postal match with three Americans shooting '63s - one Garrett, one Shiloh carbine, one Pedersoli and my Shiloh Military Rifle. Mine was in .50, t'others .54s. We shot at the appropriate NRA targets at 50, 100, 150 and 200 yds; metres in my case.

I was so green to '63s that I didn't know how to adjust the Lawrence ladder sight for windage and held off at 1 o'clock (IIRC) on the black bull at 200 in order to hit centre. Offhand at 50, sitting or kneeling at 100, bench or x-stix at 150 and 200. One competitor was in a wheelchair.

We were all surprised at the accuracy we got considering the technology. All of us admitted we could do better with our cartridge guns, but that wasn't the point.
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

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