A few more notes on the '63 carbine

Support for the 1863 shooter. Discussions of powders, loads, bullets, etc.
Rich Siegel
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

A few more notes on the '63 carbine

Post by Rich Siegel » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:54 pm

Just thought I'd let you know that I tried FG Goex powder today in my Shiloh '63 military carbine. 50 grains in a nitrated paper cartridge glued to a Rapine 490 grain "Christmas tree" ringtailed bullet, unsized, made from soft lead alloy. I used German wingless caps. Results, not real good. About 4" at 100 yards from a rest.

I then went back to my standard load of 50 grains of FFG Goex, daylight, wind and everything else the same. Got my best groups to date, running in the 2" area. I then fired a five shot group off hand and the first three shoots went into 2" or less. I then pulled the fourth shot 7" over. Well, so much for deadeye Dick. My last shot went back next to the other three.

I decided that the results for the FG powder, given the results of the FFG powder five minutes later, were not good enough for further experimentation.

Rich

gmartin
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Ever Tried Schuetzen?

Post by gmartin » Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:40 am

Rich,
Minor whine, still waiting for my carbine to come back from the Dr. Building cartridges, etc. With a cartridge on an NEI ring tailed bullet, actually 2, 500 and 515 grns., with your style I managed to put 45 grns. powder of Schuetzen Max. Which is fine. Have you experience with this powder brand? (2fg.)
Gregg

buffalocannon
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Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm

Post by buffalocannon » Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:07 pm

Dear Rich Siegel

I also have had better results using Goex FFg over Fg in both muzzle loaders and BPCRs. Many I know prefer the Fg even down to the .45-70s and .45 calibre and smaller muzzle loaders but I have always had better results out of FFg. My two cents worth.

Rich Siegel
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel » Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:22 pm

Greg,

I've tried Swiss but didn't get any better results then with Goex and at the price difference, I decided to stick with Goex. I also shoot FFG Goex in my Mississippi musket so I can by the FFG in five pound bulk at a cheaper rate. I haven't tried any of the other powders.

Buffalocannon,

I like the FFG Goex for most of my shooting. I went through a time when I shot FFFG in most guns but I've gone over to FFG except for pistols. I like FG in big 45 caliber cartridges. I had a 45/100 C Sharps '74 and it only give good groups with FG. My 50/70 also really likes FG but I force it to eat FFG as I like buying in bulk.

Thanks both of you for your comments.

Rich

buffalocannon
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Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:03 pm

Post by buffalocannon » Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:31 am

Dear Rich Siegel

In your .45-100 with Goex Fg, did you find that you had to use more powder and compression than with FFg?

Steve

Rich Siegel
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel » Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:27 am

Steve (Buffalocannon)

When I sold my 45/100, I believe I gave the fellow the loading data for it but as I remember, I did use at least .25" of compression with the FG powder. I've found though, that you really need to just experiment with the amount of powder and compression for each rifle and bullet combination. It seems that Goex really does like to be compressed, even to the point of scaring me sometimes by the amount of compression that makes the cartridge shoot best. Especially when you're dealing with compressing the powder in the long, thin brass case like stretched 45/100 cases. I've buldged cases then had to run them through the full length sizing die to get them back into shape but the rounds still shot great. That's why I've become a fan of the short, fat 50/70 cases.

Rich

HvyMtl
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Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

Which powder?

Post by HvyMtl » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:01 pm

Has any one ever tried Goex cartridge grade for the 1863?

Ken

Todd Birch
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Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

Cartridge Goex in '63

Post by Todd Birch » Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:00 pm

Hey HeavyMtl

Yes, I've used Goex Cartridge grade in my .50 '63 Military as I have more of that on hand than Goex FFg.

The rifle likes it and I intend to use it in a .50-70 Military when it arrives.

My best shooting load (at least most consistent) in the '63 has been with cartridges made up with .54 calibre 60 grain Pyrodex pellets.

I think we get too caught up in the powder thing at times. A very good shooter I know uses Fg in his .45-70; measured by volume, not weight.

Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

Rich Siegel
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Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel » Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:35 pm

Todd,

I agree with you about powder type and manufacturer. It's what the rifle really likes that counts.

Could you please tell me the size and dimensions of the Pyrodex pellets your using. If they fit my '63 paper cartridges, I'd like to try them.

Rich

Todd Birch
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:01 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Cariboo ....

.54 Pyrodex pellets

Post by Todd Birch » Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:08 pm

Hi Rich

The .54 calibre 60 grain equivalent Pyrodex pellets measure .497" in diameter and .723" in length.
They roll into a nice cartridge with a .50 calibre lubed bullet glued along the edge with a glue stick or liquid glue applicator.

The coating of black powder on the base is an aid to ignition and has to be exposed or a hole punched in the paper base with an awl. They take handling well.

When it first occurred to me, I called Hodgdon and asked for the dimensions. They asked why I wanted to know. I told them and asked if they could think of any good reason why it wouldn't work.

They said "No reason at all.", so I gave it a go.

Regretably, they do not make pellets large enough in diameter for the .54s and aren't interested in doing so. They claim that they can hardly keep up with the demand for current production.

Todd
"From birth to the packing house, we travel between the two eternities ....." Robert Duvall in "Broken Trail"

gmartin
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Boise Id

More 1863 Shooting

Post by gmartin » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:20 am

Rich,
I've said this before, but it may need re stating, I've seen Todd's Pyrodex pellet cartridges in his pictures. They are indeed classic looking and are his "go to" cartridges when others are to be tested, and with an old rather inexpensive mould by Lee to boot. Us .54 guys should be so lucky! I have some RS Pyrodex in a cartridge with a favorite bullet ready to go, "duplex" loaded with 5-10 grns 3fg. Got to have a gun to shoot these things so haven't been tested.
Ken, You used Clean Shot Loose loaded with your minie is that correct? Not familiar with that stuff at all. How are your paper cartridges coming?
Gregg

HvyMtl
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 6:44 pm
Location: Soviet state of New Jersey

1859 & Cleanshot

Post by HvyMtl » Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:15 pm

Hi Gregg

This is coming from a novice, so beware. My 1859 54 cal. loves cleanshot, but don't forget I haven't tried it with paper cartridges. Shooting it 8-10 consecutive times without cleaning I have had one and a half inch or less groups at 100 yards. You already know how I load it. It takes 80 gr. of 2f no matter which bullet I use, I also use Thompsons Bore Butter for lube. I want to add that this accuracy does not seem to last. I tried it at 200 yd. and was all over the place, I will be working on this.

I tried BP one time, besides getting really dirty it just didn't shoot as accurate, but this could have been me. ( Probably was )

AS far as my paper cartridge manufacturing goes, I have the paper and am working on the rest. I will let you know when I shoot my first cartridges and the results.

I received a message from one of the guys about posting a picture here. I am waiting for my son or wife to read it, and we will go from there.

Ken

gmartin
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Boise Id

More 1863 Shooting

Post by gmartin » Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:57 pm

Ken,
Being a "beginner" is simply that. I can learn from all, already have from you, and more is to come surely. I too am a relative new comer to the flat based paper cartridge, having shot my Shiloh '63 carbine with a bullet stared via a wooden starter supplied by Shiloh and loose powder or a sheared off non-combustible cartridge since 1978. BUT, when I shot my first flat based rounds in Feb. this year the results far out surpast the original method. Looking at your shooting they may not, but the convienience and feel of shooting this way is too cool. And I like making the things. Keep working with BP, I am going to have to eventually try Clean Shot!
Thanks, Gregg

Rich Siegel
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:53 am
Location: Maine

Post by Rich Siegel » Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:25 pm

Gregg and Todd,

The reason I asked about the dimensions for the 50 caliber Pyrodex pellets is that with my 54 caliber ringtail bullet and a paper cartridge, the inside diameter of the nitrated paper tube is 50 cal. This means that the pellets should just drop right in. This could be very interesting. One more thing to experiment with.

Thanks for more work.

Rich

gmartin
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:55 pm
Location: Boise Id

Post by gmartin » Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:49 pm

Rich,
Dang you are right about the .50 pellet slipping into a cartridge designed for your, and I hope the ones lent me recently, ring tailed bullets! Ugh! So much more to play with! (would the length be correct?)
Gregg

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